Bob Shad with Reggie Moore, 1972

Bob Shad was one of the key jazz producers of the 20th Century alongside Creed Taylor, Orrin Keepnews, Bob Thiele and Nesuhi Ertegun. He left an unforgettable mark on music across many genres, producing more than 800 albums over a 40 years career and recording many Giants in the process. “He was not just commercial, he recorded mainly what he believed in.”, said critic Leonard Feather. Born in New York on February 12th, 1920, Bob Shad got in the music business in 1946 working first for National Records and then for Savoy Records as they bought National. It was the beginning of a long and fruitful journey which saw him work with Charlie Parker on the legendary Savoy Sessions, set up EmArcy Records in the 50s and produce a 7” single in 1958 by The Jades featuring a 15 year old guitarist named Lou Reed. Oh and he recorded Janis Joplin’s first LP in 1966 with Big Brother & The Holding Co.

The list of luminaries Shad recorded or discovered is endless: Lightnin’ Hopkins and Art Blakey, Max Roach and John Cage, Cannonball Adderley and The Platters, Sarah Vaughan and Quincy Jones. An entrepreneur at heart, he founded a new label, Mainstream Records in 1964 producing jazz, psychedelia and soundtracks. In 1971, he started the cult Mainstream MRL 300 series featuring the radical sound of the early 70s recorded by a new wave of young robe-dressed jazzmen, influenced by both the modal sound of the New Thing and the funk of Sly Stone. Shad didn’t restrict his productions to one particular genre and also recorded young soul divas such as Ellerine Harding, Maxine Weldon and above all Alice Clark, whose eponymous album mixing soul with Ernie Wilkins’ funky big band arrangements has become an absolute classic.

Just out on WEWANTSOUNDS, is “Feeling Good”, a 2-LP selection from the rich Mainstream catalogue, filled with mouth-watering, Fender Rhodes-drenched deep jazz, soul and funk. And we’ve heard there is a second opus already in the pipeline. More than thirty years after his death, it is essential to rediscover the legendary Bob Shad, a maverick jazz producer and passionate music man from the glorious days when vinyl was king. We talked about the great man and his legacy to his grandson, who is none other than comedian, producer and filmmaker Judd Apatow. Cult.

You were born in 1967 just a few years after Mainstream Records was launched and the year your grandfather released the Big Brother/Janis Joplin album. Was the music he produced part of your childhood’s “soundtrack”?
Absolutely, at home when I was a kid, we listened to Jazz and to the music Bobby produced. I don’t think I fully understood what it was about until I was in high school when I started deejaying at my high school radio station and had a jazz show. At which point, I decided to visit my grandfather in Los Angeles and my hope was that, for the first time, I would be able to talk about all the work he had done because I was old enough to understand. But sadly he died of a heart attack just before I made that trip so I was never able to have that conversation with him.

What relationship did you have with him when you were growing up? What sort of grandfather was he and what was he representing in your family?
As a kid I saw my grandfather all the time. My father actually worked at Mainstream Records for my grandfather so I would visit them a lot at the label. Bobby was a legend in the family for all he had accomplished. He was a really funny guy and had a great sense of humour. He loved to give you a “hard time” and he was so passionate about music and what he’d done.

Bob Shad was a cult producer and we could say the same about you in a way. How did he inspire you?
He was such an inspiration because he was a self-made man. He was some poor kid in New York who cobbled together enough money to hire some jazz musicians and record them. Then he had records made and went to sell them to record stores himself and that was in the 40s. Then he opened a record store and started his own label. What’s amazing is some of the people he recorded when he was very young turned out to be Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. It all happened just because he loved the music so much. He had no ‘way in’ in the business. He didn’t know anyone and just did it. For me that was a great inspiration because I thought ‘oh you can do what you want to do in comedy, you just have to do it’ so I started interviewing comedians when I was a very young and I was writing jokes for them. I also did stand-up comedy in high school and that was all because I knew my grandfather had done the same as a young man. For instance, he went down south with his tape recorder and recorded all these blues artists on their front stoops. He was a real innovator.

You’ve namechecked him in your film “Walk Hard – Dewey Cox Story” by naming one group in the film “Bobby Shad & The Bad Men”, a nod to the album he released on Mainstream Records. Also you have used several tracks from Mainstream Records in your soundtracks along the years. Do you have any favourite track or album from the catalogue?
I get a kick out that album, Bobby Shad & The Bad Men where he would cover rock songs with a 65 pieces orchestra, it’s such a fun album. I grew up listening to the first Big Brother & The Holding Company record featuring Janis Joplin because the family talked about it all the time. My family would say: “Janis Joplin is the best singer ever and your grandfather found her before anybody else in 1966”. I have the letter of intent hanging in my office dated Sept 7 1966 saying she was going to sign with him. So people talk about Columbia boss Clive Davis discovering Janis Joplin but my parents always said: “Well actually not, your grandfather did. She did her first album for Mainstream Records”.
There is also a legend in the family that Bobby tried to sign Elvis Presley. Apparently he was down South and he called Mercury, the label he worked for at the time, to tell them to sign Elvis but it took a very long time to get approval and match the sum Colonel Tom Parker, Elvis’ Manager, was asking for. So by the time Mercury gave the greenlight, Elvis had already been signed by RCA for 40.000$. I always enjoyed hearing the stories about who Bobby didn’t sign. People he had seen when they were really young and didn’t pick, like the Grateful Dead. Another one was Bob Seeger. Bobby would say: “Ah yes I didn’t sign him!”

Hadley Caliman, Alice Clark, Harold Land

There is one album, The Alice Clark one from 1972, whose reputation has been growing exponentially over the last years as one of the best soul albums of all times. It’s beautiful and got a very cinematic feel. Do you have any plans to use more tracks from the Mainstream vaults in future productions?
I regularly use tracks from the Mainstream catalogue in all of my films. I always have jazz in there, also rock and blues tracks, I’ve used Ted Nugent’s group The Amboy Dukes, Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee. It’s a fun nod to my grandfather and his work.

Bob Shad seemed ahead of his time as he championed African American artists (jazz, blues, doowop…) producing them back in the 40s at a time when it wasn’t common. Has he passed on to you his passion for jazz, funk and blues or made you appreciate these genres more, in today’s context?
I’m a big fan of jazz, funk and blues. I’m certainly not as knowledgeable as he was but he made me appreciate the music and made me more open in having eclectic tastes in all arts. The best thing about Bobby is he had no boundaries with the label: he produced rock ‘n’ roll, blues, jazz, avant-garde with a John Cage album! He just loved music. Also Mainstream was a vital label in the 70s when jazz was not as popular as it had been. Mainstream was one of the few labels who were still making original jazz. And he put out some comedy albums as well which I really loved as a kid, like these Dickie Goodman records where he would be a reporter asking questions and the answers were little snippets of famous songs. There were really funny albums.

Your grandfather fought hard to impose photos of black musicians on album covers…
Yes way back then, Record labels didn’t want to carry records if they had pictures of Black artists on the cover and Bobby would refuse this. In his own way he broke down a lot of barriers by loving this music and by pushing the world to hear it. He felt that these great Black art forms deserved much more respect.

Bob Shad at Record Plant Studio with Reggie Moore and Carmine Rubino

Your films “Knocked Up” and “This is 40” films with Paul Rudd as a Label owner feel very authentic. You were too young to work at Mainstream but have you had any record label experience in the past?
I know the music business from my family running Mainstream Records. They’ve been putting out music through the years as the formats changed: from vinyl to CDs and now streaming and digital downloads. So I do understand the work and the struggle to keep a label going. Also My high-school friend Josh Rosenthal who was deejaying with me at the high school radio went on to work at Sony Music for many years before starting his own label, Tompkins Square Records, a great specialty label, so I’ve seen his journey over the decades and some of that have inspired me as well.
My love for music and artists who are not necessarily the most commercial ones has always been there. Loudon Wainwright III is one of my favourite artists so I had him score Knocked Up. Graham Parker who stars in the film was very keen to satirise the struggle of ageing rockstars. Also we made the movie ‘Pop Star’, a mockumentary with Andy Samberg and his comedy trio ‘The Lonely Island’. And of course ‘Walk Hard The Dewey Cox story’ about a fictional rock’n’roll star; so I always go back to music.

Thanks to the new compilation “Feeling Good – The Supreme Sound of Producer Bob Shad” a new generation hooked on jazz, funk and hip hop are going to discover the great productions of your grandfather who was a fiercely independent music guy. Do you think independence remains the key for cultural creativity and diversity?
I’ve always admired people who go their own way. Some people are very good at making Top 40 music but I’ve always been a big fan of artists who express themselves and don’t think too much about what’s popular in the moment. I just participated in a tribute concert to Warren Zevon. Jackson Browne put the event together and everybody sang songs by Warren. I’m really interested in artists who make music from their heart and don’t worry too much about the economics, Bod Dylan, Loudon, Jazz artists…

Mtume for Buddy Terry sessions

Mainstream Records tracks have been sampled many times by the likes of NWA’s Easy E or A Tribe Called Quest. Recently, Chance the Rapper has used a sample of the track “Red Clay” by Jack Wilkins in his track “Nana”. His lyrics are pretty “green” as we say in France. Did you meet with him? How did it go?
We didn’t talk about that specific sample when I met him but I’m a fan of his work and I feel like he’s evolving quickly into one of the greatest rap artists in the world. Obviously some of his earlier work is edgier (laughs) but his current work is very spiritual and inspiring so I thought it’s great that he’s used a sample from the Mainstream catalogue.

Late in his career, Bob Shad decided to move to Los Angeles and go into Film production. You’ve followed a similar path in a way with comedy as a launching pad instead of music. Are there any cool film projects he was involved in during that later Hollywood period or any anecdote?
Bobby was working with director Frankenheimer for a few years and I know there was a moment when they were trying to get the movie “Being There” made. My grandmother told me they had the rights of the book for a while. They didn’t manage to get it made, Amoeba Records ended up directing it, but at least I know they had good taste!

Last question, do you collect records and LPs in particular? Do you have any favourite shop in Los Angeles?
I hadn’t been buying vinyl for a long time but in the last year I bought a whole new sound system with a turntable and have just started the vinyl journey again. I hadn’t listened to vinyl for so long and I put a Led Zeppelin album on, it felt like they were in the room. I thought “My god what have I done with my crappy sound system for the last twenty years!” It’s fun to go in record shops and search things out. There’s Amoeba Records in LA of course. There is also a great shop in Santa Monica, The Record Surplus, we shot a scene in Knocked Up there actually.

This interview was originally published by Liberation, in a shorter french version

Each month, we are focusing on a record label founded by an active digger. We are stopping with Robert Luis, co-owner and A&R of Tru Thoughts, based in Brighton. DJ known as «Sonic Switch», he also has a weekly radio show called Unfold where he plays new tunes as well as nuggets from his record collection. Time to talk to him…

When did you start digging records?
I did not really have much money when I was young. But I asked my Mum to buy me The B Boys 2-3 Break 12” when I was around 12 years old as a birthday present. My mum worked in Tottenham in London and bought it from Body Music (which I think still exists today). I used to ask for records for presents. When I was around 16 I could work during the holidays so started a bit more seriously buying music then and also started getting DJ gigs then too, which gave me a bit more money. My digging was buying cheap records. I used to shop at a place in Romford in Essex that had lots of Soul, Disco, House and Hip Hop and a bit of Reggae around 17 and 18. I would wait for Hip Hop that charted to go in the bargain bins and would buy 7″s as could not afford to buy 12”s as it meant only getting one record. I have Public Enemy and Ultramagnetic MC’s 7”s that I bought for cheap when I was around 15-16 and waited a few years to buy the 12″s which is what I actually wanted. I also shopped at City Sounds in Holborn around 18-19 years old.

What LPs did you buy at first? Do you still listen to them?
I was more into getting 12”s as they were louder pressings for DJing with. I remember ringing up lots of shops from a payphone near my school to get De La Soul – ‘Three Feet High And Rising’ when it was released on import. It was actually hard to get on import back then if you were not a connected DJ. I ended up getting a copy in Ilford, Essex.
My four years old son currently likes Eye Know and Me, Myself and I, which he saw on YouTube, so currently I am listening to the album.

Did you have a particular style or favourite period?
I enjoy searching for music but was always about trying to get more obscure and interesting new music. I have always felt it was important to support new artists releasing music now. I used to love shopping at Mr Bongo in the 90’s for the Indie Hip Hop and Beats stuff that they would stock and If Music in the late 90’s and 00’s was a great place for me to pick up quality music across all genres.
I used to run a club night on Wednesdays in Brighton in the 90’s called Shake Yer Wig. I would play all the current Hip Hip (Big up Mr Bongo) and then also be searching for the original samples if I did not know them already, then playing those Funk, Soul, Jazz tunes too alongside the new Hip Hop releases.

Are you still digging’, buying vinyl, visiting record shops?
Not visiting record shops as much as I used to. I do buy a lot online. I buy music every week and still buy vinyl.

What was your first release on Tru Thoughts?
It was by Steady. An instrumental Hip Hop thing that a few Big Beat DJ’s played at 45rpm instead of 33rpm! First artist album was Bonobo, ‘Animal Magic’.

Anchorsong
Eve

Why did you choose this name: Tru Thoughts? Because there are too much liars in music business?
In a way that is part of the story behind the name. Before starting Tru Thoughts I made a tune and did some bad deals with that. Sold it to an advert for 10% of what I should have done and also signed the track exclusively in the USA to someone for less than I should have done.
I knew I wanted Thoughts in the name and then saw Pete Rock’s ‘Tru Master’ release sticking out of my best friend’s record collection one day. I did feel it would be a good reminder to me to make sure I do not put any Tru Thoughts artists through the experience I went through.
You have to move on when conned in the industry (Quincy Jones and Dr Dre have shown that lesson) but it is still hard to go through. Without sounding too much of a hippy I hope the name is good for us as a label and for our artists to remember why we do this. I want our artists to make a living from music and earn money but I do not want us to con people in order to do that.

Who was your model in music producing story, record labels ?
When I was young I followed Def Jam and tried to always read about what was going on behind the scenes there. Mo Wax and Ninja Tune have a big influence too. I think Skint having the success in Brighton they did with Fatboy Slim influenced a lot of people in Brighton to actually go and do a label rather than talk about it. I liked Talkin Loud a lot too.
Blue Note is a label that I reference a lot. They seemed to just be a home for artists to put out their music without too much heavy A&R. They had distinctive designs too.

What could be the label’s leitmotif?
Soul is how I would describe what we do whether it is Grime or Tropical. All the music is made by people who believe in what they do.

Your editorial/esthetic line?
Artists who make music they are into and try and make the best music they can within the budgets they have to record.

You had divided your record label on 3 parts : Tru Thoughts 7 seven, Unfold Records and Zebra Traffics. Was it an aesthetic decision? Or rather an economical choice?
Unfold was for compilations and we only did a few as it was time consuming licensing music compared to signing music to release. Zebra Traffic was for Hip Hop specifically. We stopped the label at the time Grime was making its first impact, as sales seemed to be dipping at that time for what we did. The 7”s was just to highlight the 7″s we were doing at the time. It was mainly to help distributors and buyers differentiate between the music we were putting out.

Quantic (c) Christina Jorro

How do you decide on the choice of issues?
I have to be into the music we release. I want variety on the label, so try and make sure that we have a few different genres in the schedule every year.

When and how did you meet Quantic?
Natural Self booked him to DJ in Brighton in 2000 and Will came to the office after the gig. He had just released his ‘Breakin Bread’ 7” then and I had bought it, but he gave me a copy anyway. He came with a CD of what became The 5th Exotic. I was very excited when I played that demo at home and called him straight away. I think he was surprised I was not asking him to change anything. As I recall he said he had been sending demos out but people were asking him to change tunes quite a bit. He had downtempo, breakbeats and even a Drum and Bass style track on the demo. He was definitely someone making forward thinking music I loved and still delivers that quality today.

What is your relationship with him ? How do you work together?
Hopefully he would say we have a good relationship. He was a big part in helping us building up the label. I know he would recommend me to lots of promoters to book me to DJ as he travelled across the world gigging. He was also patient. Each year as we chatted I would talk about what I think we could achieve with his music and we seemed to hit those goals every year. He was not after overnight success but definitely up for building up real fans by gigging and releasing good albums.
I am not someone who A&R’s too heavily. He pretty much sends me music and ideas and I pretty much just go with what he wants. I make some suggestions, some of which he takes and some of which he ignores! When he moved to Columbia he had to get me up to date with that influence and bought me loads of vinyl to check…I liked that.
I am genuinelly a fan of his. I rate him alongside Quincy Jones, Pharrell, Rick Rubin, Wiley, Soul II Soul / Massive Attack. Genius producers.

Quantic’s music is in perpetual evolution. He goes from deep funk to cumbia, downtempo of more club material. Did you give your artists total freedom of choice or do they have to follow the label’s esthetic line?
I just ask artists to make music they like. No artist on Tru Thoughts should be making music for an A&R. I think artists should be making music they believe in and then hope that we are into the music too. I have a wide taste in music so there is plenty of scope.

You released a Hot 8 Brass Band record… Why this choice ? And why you did not have continued to dig that style of music, meaning NOLA ?
I loved the music and to work with an authentic New Orleans band is great. I like to have variety on the label so to date that is why we have not worked with anyone more. But who knows what the future holds.

Just like your label, Bonobo remains a cult project for all lovers of some electronic music…
I am not sure if there is a scene around Bonobo. All his albums sound significantly different to me but all are quality. He is an artist just following his own musical path and seems to be taking lots of people on that journey with him.

Tru Thoughts does not do reissues. Do you plan to do any or do you leave that to other labels and focus on artists’s development?
Reissues can be quite time consuming. I feel for Tru Thoughts our platform should be used to try and make new artists have some light on their music. I think the labels out there doing re-issues alongside new music like Soundway, BBE and Soul Jazz do a fantastic job.
We did the London Posse album but that was due to us signing Rodney P and me being a super fan of the London Posse!

Do you consider production and reissues as two different trades?
Practically it is. We have found re-issuing a lot of hard work compared to A&R’ing current artists. But when labels do relatively obscure music they are still doing the same job as labels releasing new music….getting good music out and shining some light on it.

For twenty years, the music market has totally changed. Is it now more difficult to publish new artists?
It is definitely harder for new artists today. Digital stream sales have definitely effected download and physical albums sales. For new artists this can make a difference. But this is the way it is. In indie terms we have to adapt as a label and so do artists. But I feel positive still that we can help artists make a living from music. They may not be able to buy a mansion with swimming pool but they can potentially earn a decent wage.

More and more record labels sell themselves their own records, skipping not only distributors but also record shops. Do you think it’s a model for the future?
I think there will always be record shops. In Brighton Resident is always packed when I go to it and has taken over the shop next door too. Buying vinyl or CD’s still seems to be a social thing….it is very dry buying music online and not being able to examine what you are buying.

Liv Fast Die Young

The « vinyl revival » has side effects. Some of your previous releases became collectibles items (think of Quantic Soul Orchestra’s LP for example). Do you plan to repress those?
We do not deliberately not repress anything we wait till there is demand. We have re-pressed Quantic, Bonobo, and Alice albums quite a few times.

There are more and more reissues of old LPs, and more and more record labels (major or indie) now release their new artists on LP, or EP. Do you think that the LP reissue market could ever reach saturation point?
Vinyl seems to go in cycles. When the CD first came out everyone said vinyl would die, then that happened a few years ago too. Turntables seems to be selling so as long as that happens I am sure there will be a market.

What are your next releases?
We have a great album from The Seshen (from the Bay Area USA). Future Soul style, with a lovely white vinyl release. There is a new experimental release from Hidden Orchestra called Wing Beats out on vinyl. We have a Psychedlic R&B project from Harleighblu & Starkiller. Plus we are looking to put the Flowdan album out on vinyl as there seems to be demand for that… quality Grime music.

What is the LP you could dream of reissuing?
Not an LP but currently ‘Rhythm and Gash’ by Rebound X is a tune I would like to re-issue. Rebound X self released the track on vinyl in 2006 and the last 2-3 years the track is just getting bigger and bigger. He has disappeared and no one seems to know much about him or where he is. But he has a big club tune.

And the artist you dream producing?
I am not a producer but Quantic producing someone like Michael Kiwanuka would be interesting to me. It would not be pop but I think it would be popular.

To go further

Wanda Robinson
The Un-Hero

«Wanda Robinson is a committed artist from Baltimore, author of two albums released in the early 70. Pure poetry, with folk, soul and jazz influences.»
 

Samba Mapangala & Orchestre Virunga
Ahmed Sabit (Extended Intro)

«Samba Mapangala comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo, but worked in Kenya for a long time, which might explain this mixture. In fact, you will hear here the introduction of “Ahmed Sabit” I just extended to more happiness.»
 

The Chris Hinze Combination
African Rapness (12″ Version)

«Chris Hinze is a Dutch avant-garde jazz flutist inspired by all kinds of cultures (Jamaica, Africa, Indonesia, India, Japan …). The voice of Salimata Diabate on this piece found on an old mix of Italian DJ Daniele Baldelli is mesmerizing.»
 

Quincy Jones Feat. Matt Monroe
On Days Like This

«The title is taken from the soundtrack “The Italian Job” composed by the great Quincy Jones. We are at the beginning of the film, a man driving a red sports car on a winding road in the Alps, the weather is beautiful. Freedom!»
 

Peter Gordon
Intervallic Expansion

« Peter Gordon is a saxophonist from New York. His experiments range from jazz to opera, rock to disco. He has worked with the Flying Lizards, Laurie Anderson and Arthur Russell. »

Lee Morgan
The Gigolo

« This is really the song that got me into jazz. Before this I was really only into gangster rap. When i was like 11 or 12 my cousin let me here a tape he had with Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers and that sparked an interest, but this record brought me all the way to the other side. »
 

Eric Dolphy
Out to Lunch

« When I told my dad I wanted to play the saxophone he took me to the home of a friend of his who was a great jazz record collector. At the time I was playing alto sax. He knew that I liked Lee Morgan and Art Blakey, I don’t know why but this is the first record he played for me and when they saw how excited I got from hearing it, my dad took me seriously and started me on my journey. »
 

John Coltrane
Transition

« This track is the most influential track for me as a saxophonist. I listen to it everyday for like 3 years when I was around 17 and it’s my favorite! Funny though when I was young my dad tried to show it to me but it was too heavy and I didn’t like it. Then later I got into it and I went to my dad and said “Have you ever heard Transitions!? Trane takes the 2 most amazing solos ever!” He just looked at me and laughed. »
 

Norman Connors
Dark of Light

« The use of voices on this record really inspired me when I was writing music for The Epic. There’s a really dark beautiful texture that I really dig! »
 

Quincy Jones
Cast Your Fate To The Wind

« Just my favorite track from one of my all time favorite records! »