(c) Alexis Maryon

Saxophonist, composer, actor, and tap dancer, Idris Ackamoor is the founder of The Pyramids in 1972, resurrected ten years ago. Since 2010 the band has toured throughout the world with original members and a line-up of new players. As for this brand new album, ‘An Angel Fell’ produced by Malcolm Catto and recorded during an intense week at Quatermass studios in London. Time to go back to the complete story of this under known master.

In Land of Ra we can see a tribute to Sun Ra. Did you know him? What was his influence?
The original name of the composition was “Land of Jah” as a tribute to the beautiful Island of Jamaica. I changed it when I updated the composition adding lyrics and a new reference to “Land of Ra” referencing a double meaning to the Egyptian Ra, god of the sun, as well as a tribute to Sun Ra. I did not know Sun Ra personally but I always was inspired by his music and theatrical stage performances. He is still one of my favorite composers and performers. Equally, I have always loved Marshall Allen’s and John Gilmore’s playing.

Cecil Taylor was also a mentor, who was looking for other ways. What was your relationship with him?
Cecil was one of my major influences musically and philosophically and one of my greatest teachers along with my principle mentor, historic clarinet and reed master Andrew Cyrille (who had played with Jelly Roll Morton and Freddie Keppard in the 1920s), and the late alto saxophonist Charles Tyler. I was a student at Antioch College in Yellow Springs, Ohio and studying in the music department. One of my music professors, named John Ronsheim, wrote a large grant to bring Cecil Taylor and his group including the late Jimmy Lyons on alto, Andrew Cyrille on drums, dancer Ken Miller, percussionist Cliff Sykes, and poet James Thompson. Professor Ronsheim decided to give me a work-study job to help prepare the way for Cecil and his ensemble to come to Antioch. During Cecil’s stay he taught classes and conducted the Cecil Taylor Black Music Ensemble. I took Cecil’s classes and was a member of the Ensemble playing alto saxophone in the alto section, along with Jemeel Moondoc and Bobby Zankle, both of who are major innovators in the jazz world now.

Sun Ra and Cecil Taylor have been classified in free jazz, yet their music is often different in their intentions. What do you think of this word, free jazz? A paradoxical jail or a radical opening?
I don’t and never have used the word «free jazz». If someone wants to use that word to describe a certain genre of jazz I don’t really have a problem with it. I am not much into slogans, or types. I understand the need for marketing purposes to have a name to attempt to identify a category of music. However, I must quote one of the masters of African American music, Duke Ellington, who said, «There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind.»

You toured in Africa during the 70’s… What did you find, discovered?
I found my true self! Africa was a spiritual and revelational journey and adventure for me. I will never forget it and it will always be a part of one of my greatest experiences and influences beyond all others. I took a musical and spiritual journey to Northern Ghana traveling to Tamale and Bolgatanga, Ghana. It lasted about two weeks and during that time I played with the Dagomba people of Tamale who introduced me to playing with the King’s drummers. I also journeyed to Bolgatanga and participated in several magical musical rituals and ceremonies including performing at the Second Burial of a Fra Fra King, as well as, undertaking a healing ritual in the African bush with a Shaman who performed the «ritual of the washing of the legs». I collected many instruments and also became a percussionist playing a variety of instruments including talking drums, balafons, and a variety of flutes.

Lalibela


 

When you were going back, you had recorded three Afro-jazz albums, “c” in 1973, “King of Kings” in 1974 and “Birth / Speed / Merging” in 1976 on independent labels. Why this choice of independence ?
I wanted a way to get the music of The Pyramids out to a wider audience. In America it was the time of crossover music and rock and roll, and this was the type of music that was being played on the radio as well as recorded by record companies. They were not recording the music of Cecil Taylor or The Pyramids. Cecil was already beginning to self-produce and distribute his music while he was at Antioch College. Sun Ra was also continuing to self-produce and distribute his music. It was a natural development for me to be inspired by these innovative and independent musicians who also wanted to take control of their own musical destiny. The Pyramids were some of the first DIY musicians to take control of their music and fiercely independent!

The first Pyramids LP’s from the 70’s are now strong collector’s pieces. Haw many of each of them have been printed at the time
We printed 1000 copies of ‘Lalibela’ and ‘King of ’ and 5000 copies of ‘Birth/Speed/’. Many of the Birth/Speed/Merging LPs we’re unfortunately lost during a move.

You have a special link with France since this is where your band, The Pyramids, was born. Tell us more about this episode?
I wrote a proposal to the Antioch College Abroad Program to leave America with three Antioch students (my ex-wife flutist Margo Simmons, and electric bassist Kimathi Asante) and travel to Europe and form a band and work. The college agreed to send us with the condition that we had to at least spend some time at a university for several months. Once we did this we would be on our own to form a band and attempt to find work as professional musicians. We selected the University of Besançon and we took 6 weeks of Intensive French. We arrived in this idyllic small city in the French countryside and began our year abroad! While we were at the University we each stayed in three different dormitories that were shaped a lot like a pyramid. Hence the name! Following the six week language program we were speaking French pretty good, but when we left after the end of the intensive we went to Paris and then to Amsterdam. While in Paris we were introduced to musicians like tenor saxophonist Frank Wright and we also met a young drummer our age named Donald Robinson. He became the first drummer with The Pyramids and followed us to Amsterdam and months later to Yellow Springs, Ohio.

Ayler’s and Pharoah’s messages (‘Music Is The Healing Force Of The Universe’, ‘Love Is Everywhere,’ …), are spiritual jazz essence. Do people need now more than ever music with a message?
I have always believed that musicians are spiritual messengers! Just like the ancient griots of Africa musicians are the repository of the collective cultural memories of a people. Whether it is John Coltrane’s ‘Alabama’ as a homage to the four black schoolgirls killed in Birmingham, or Charlie Parker’s ‘Now’s The Time’, the powerful music of Bob Marley or Fela Kuti, or ‘Soliloquy For Michael Brown’ from my album. These are the compositions and the musicians I most admire and listen to. Musicians who are not afraid to compose and play music with a positive message. I also loved the freedom and uncompromising music of early Albert Ayler whose very style and intensity sends its own kind of spiritual and political message! I was fortunate enough to study and play with Albert’s cousin and alto player, Charles Tyler.

Nsorama from King of Kings

 

We are witnessing a revival of spiritual jazz, also known as cosmic jazz, whose values you carry. What could be your definition of this music?
I can only define my music. As I mentioned before I understand the need to use words to categorize and market music. However, I am an Artistic Being! The music I play is cosmic in that it is expansive and encompasses the past, present and future of the Omniverse! I also live in San Francisco! In the early 70’s the city was the epicenter for mind altering drugs, flower power, and freedom. I love the music of Jimi Hendrix, Sly and the Family Stone and Santana. But equally I grew up in Chicago. The home of the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians. I loved Martha and the Vandellas. Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. And of course The Impressions. Then I was birthed into John Coltrane, nurtured by Cecil Taylor, destroyed and reinvented by Albert Ayler and the album “Bells”. Altoist Charles Tyler passed a message on to me I will never forget! Clifford King was truly «The King»! He taught me to play dogs and cats, lightning and rain, and invent my life. I mention all of the above because they are the aggregate of cosmic music…music of the Omniverse!

Your were a tap dancer, you had worked with Bill T. Jones, great choregrapher… What is your relationship to dance? Do you think music is a «body and soul» affair?
Yes, I am a tap dancer. Or more appropriately, a «hoofer». Legendary hoofer, the late Al Robinson, was my mentor and teacher. He taught me to tell stories with my feet. I am one of the repositories of amazingly complex and sublime «Al Robinson» steps. I also studied with the master Steve Condos. I also number Bill T. Jones as a friend and collaborator. His creativity and intellect is of the highest form. I danced a duet with Bill in the Cultural Odyssey production, “Perfect Courage”. Music is a «body and soul affair». I seek to be a very physical saxophonist with the stance of a basketball player at the free throw line. Breath to me is the most important aspect of my playing. I play like i’m swimming. Breathing deep, relaxed, but intense!

In your new album you talk about global apocalypse, climate change and the healing power of music. Why this title : An Angel Fell? A subliminal message?
Everyone who listens to the music and lyrics of “An Angel Fell” will have their own story to tell. It is my phantasmagoric journey just below the service of awareness. Something I dreamed or thought I dreamed but in fact it was a reality. A love story. A story of loss and recovery. A story of memory, minds, bodies, and spirits crossing time… falling through space. What’s your story?

When we see the coming to power of many nationalists, including Donald Trump in the USA, but also in India, Japan or Europe, are you pessimistic about the future of the planet?
I don’t have a pessimistic bone in my body! I embrace the positive and hope abounds. I’m from a people who were taken as slaves and who triumphed against all odds! My mother was one of those golden warriors. I saw my father (who is now 96 years old) stand up fearless looking into the barrel of a gun held by a white man. I was there as a teenager helping him as a janitor in the sixties. So, no I am not pessimistic about the future of the planet. I have seen real live angels in my life… they are everywhere… in the prisons, on the playgrounds, next door…

Tinoge

 

What are the main dangers for the next years ?
Indifference! Listen to the album.

The political commitment was very strong in the 70’s, and again there is a movement of more militant musicians. Do you believe that music is the weapon of the future, as Fela said?
A friend of mine said, «Musicians are the ambassadors of the soul». I believe this. For me weapons and music are diametrically opposed! Try to live one day without music in your life! Music is omnipresent! The eyes are the windows into the soul and the ears are the black hole into space. Music is change and change is music! See the clouds part with the sun. It’s a new start everyone!

“Tinoge” is co-written with Max Weissenfeldt and a few others. Are you surprised by this new generation, who often knows history better than many jazz specialists?
There are many of the new generation who respect what came before but are not anchored to it. I find it exciting when genres are broken down and barriers come tumbling down! Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down! Musicians young and old have to speak with one voice, blow with one horn to tumble down walls of hatred, disrespect, and division.

How did you work with Malcolm Catto? What did he bring you?
Malcolm gave 100% to the recording! He has such large ears and the ability to help guide and produce a recording session in a respectful and mutually supportive manner. The more we worked together the better we understood each other. I found him to be very nurturing of my compositional needs and vision for the album which was worked out in my waking dreams for many years.

Are you going to perform on stage with Heliocentrics?
I am ready anytime!!!! And would love it!

Check the complete new record on Strut website

The Quintet
All The Things You Are

 
«This was the album that was on repeat on my stereo. I used to lay on the floor with my eyes closed analysing how the band members aesthetically create the nuances of hardship and triumph, displayed by their genius for a lack of a better word.»
 

John Coltrane
Moment’s Notice

 
«This album opens me up to really being able to appreciate the stylistic hard bop approach to the music and the sheer ferocious nature of an expression when its time has arrived.»
 

Brian Blade & Wolfgang Muthspiel
Gnadenwald

 
«‘Friendly Travelers’ is one my favorite record by fact of how unfamiliar/familiar it is from the band configuration and how the use of instrument goes beyond the idea of its conventional thought…»
 

Louis Moholo
Angel Nomali

 
«This is somehow a soundtrack of my upbringing, this would some up my sound pallet in my early teens and just the interest in the narrative of this artist, his trajectory and committment to the music. He is most definitely one of my heroes.»
 

Zim Ngqawana
Long Waltz To Freedom

 
«This track and this album represent a period of exploring with sound as an ideology of healing. That lends us to the notion of a simple repetitive motive and building with the intensity of spontaneous composition of members of the ensemble.»

Matt Temple is a living encyclopedia when it comes to South African Grooves. From Jive, Disco or the incredible local Jazz scene, the Matsuli Blog (with Matt Temple in London, and Chris Albertyn in South Africa) has been over the years a priceless source of information for anybody interested in the subject. The quality of its releases has been one of the most consistent of recent years from the Jazzy Disco sound of Dick Khoza to the incredible Spiritual Jazz sound of Batsumi or Sathima Bea Benjamin. Here’s the story behind this phenomenal record archiving experience.

When did you start digging records?
I started buying records in the mid-seventies when I was a teenager but this wasn’t really digging. I would be saving up money and buying albums I read about or friends recommended.

What LPs did you buy at first? Do you still listen to them?
The first LPs I got were albums by the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin. Pretty soon I moved to punk, post-punk, ska and reggae LPs by the Clash, Specials, Joy Division, Bob Marley and others. I’ve probably heard these LPs too much but I do still listen to them from time to time.

Do you have a particular style or favorite period?
I listen to a lot of music from many different periods and genres. But when it comes to collecting I particularly like Congolese rumba from the 1960s, East African musiki wa dans from the seventies, West African latin and manding sounds as well as lots of tropical styles from cumbia, salsa through to reggae and funk. The period 1960-1980 is key.

Are you still digging’, buying vinyl, visiting record shops?
I visit second hand stores in London regularly but the internet has normalized pricing so chance findings are rare. I love visiting new record stores, especially when travelling, mostly believing that I might find something of interest. I was recently in Cartagena and picked up a great stack of cumbia and salsa originals.

What was your first release on Matsuli?
This was Dick Kloza’s Chapita LP in June 2010.

 
Why did you choose this name: Matsuli?
It was based on the South African Motella label design and is a combination of people’s names.

What could be your editorial/aesthetic line?
Music archaeologists bringing lost musical recordings back to life. And we focus on bringing back original albums, rather than compilations.

How to describe your work? Memory? historian? journalist? witness?
We are on the one hand archivists bringing back to the public important musical works that have been lost, and on the other hand curators as we selecting specific recordings that will be commercially viable.

Do you think Batsumi, the mythical combo of Soweto (you released their two recordings of the mid-1970s), is one of the best musical synthesis between local rhythmic and harmonic jazz? How this soundtrack combines spirituality, with the writings of Frantz Fanon and the impulses of Steve Biko, the soul-funk grooves and the more traditional melodic lines?
As archivists we are left with physical artefacts in the form of vinyl LPs, or master tapes. There are many groups missing from recognition, groups that for whatever reason were unable to record their material. But Batsumi are an incredible group and their albums – together with those from Malombo, Xoliso, Malopoets and others – mark a high-point for indigenous afro jazz in South Africa.

Batsumi Group Shot
 

“African Songbird”, Sathima Bea Benjamin’s LP, is one of the biggest holy grail that you have reissued. All the spirit of this session of homecoming is reflected in ‘Africa’, a love song and a political declaration. The same year she gave birth to Tsidi, now female rapper Jean Grae. How did you work with this singer? Do you see a sign of fate that she died just after this reissue?
We signed a contract with her and Rashid Vally who sponsored the original sessions. Matsuli launched the reissue over three days in Cape Town where I had a chance to spend time with her, talking about the past and the future. It was very sad to learn of her death just a few months after we had re-issued the LP. At the time I wrote this reflection: “Hi Rashid, is it true?”, “Yes Matt she is on the other side.” With what feels like a physical blow to the body I try to make sense of it all. Barely a month earlier I was in Cape Town for what was to be Sathima’s swan song: Observatory celebrating the reissue of her 1976 masterpiece African Songbird that I’d just reissued on my label. Although suffering from flu Sathima commanded the room with the voice of an angel. The electric atmosphere and crowded space only enhanced the palpable sense of being in the presence of greatness. As we mark Sathima’s birthday today I’m still trying to make sense of it all. Her long struggle to be heard, never playing on her African roots and resolutely uncommercial with a complete commitment to classic jazz idioms. And a big shadow cast by her partner Abdullah Ibrahim, the challenges of motherhood exacerbated by exile and an uneasy homecoming from the Chelsea Hotel in New York where she said she felt most at home. Sathima had the unique ability to strike first at your heart, not unlike the experience of hearing Billie Holiday for the first time. She cites hearing Billie’s performance in Lady Sings the Blues as being pivotal to her development as a singer. And Sathima’s original compositions like Africa and Nations in Me eschew the commonly prescribed categories of race and nationhood propagated by Apartheid. It’s a powerful combination. Her final performance at Tagore’s was highly anticipated and packed shoulder-to-shoulder. Some initial microphone issues before Sathima took to the stage, backed by the Hilton Schilder Trio, to perform one more time her classic songbook tunes, laments and the anthem Africa. “I’ve been gone much too long/and I’m glad to say that I’m home, I’m home to stay…” I was so happy for her despite the knowledge that perhaps this might all be too late. We spoke late into the evening at the Labia Cinema on Sunday and at the Mahogany Room on Tuesday about taking this forward. Too late, and now she’s on the other side. And that’s our lament: that home is still the other side.

In the liner notes of Inhlupeko Soul Jazzmen, it says: «South African jazz players felt a strong affinity with John Coltrane, who had died only a couple of years earlier.» Indeed, this record could have been also recorded on Blue Note or Prestige. How do you explain this relationship, this influence with American jazz? How South African could buy this kind of records?
South Africa was not cut off – local companies reissued jazz and Blue Note, Prestige and Riverside LPs were also imported. As the notes suggest American jazz represented an urban modern and proudly black articulation of identity. It is not at all surprising that under the social constraints of Apartheid that jazz represented the idea of an identity free of those mental and physical chains.

At the same time, other musicians were forced into exile, such as Blue Notes or Chris McGregor. Is this a scene you want to document too, as does the Ogun label?
Ogun has done an outstanding job of documenting this particular area. One artist whose recordings are sadly out of print is Johnny Dyani – it would be great to produce a box set of his material that came out on various European labels.

In the future is “Tshona” by Pat Matshikiza & Kippie Moketsie, a possible reissue? What about Dollar Brand’s “Mannenberg” or “Underground in Africa”?
Tshona and Mannenberg are very well know and have been reissued a number of times. They are not that difficult to find. Tshona was in fact Kippie’s answer to Mannenberg’s success. Underground in Africa and Shikiza Matshikiza (Pat and Kippie’s second album together) are definitely on the radar though.

Pops Mohamed in seventies…

Black Disco
Echo On The Delay

In another vein, just as spiritual, you publish nowadays a LP with Pops Mohammed: “Black Disco”. Could you tell us more about the story of this record? The history of this band? What about their 2 other LP’s?
The sleeve notes written by Gwen Ansell, author of Soweto Blues, tells it much better than me: Just before the first Black Disco album was made, Rashid Vally’s As-Shams label (which also handled The Dynamics) had released Abdullah Ibrahim’s Mannenberg. Mohamed already knew bassist Sipho Gumede from Dorkay House. At Vally’s Kohinoor record store, he was introduced to Capetonian Coetzee, still in town after the Mannenberg recording session. “Rashid said: ‘This is Pops—he’s a new guy and he’s got compositions. Why don’t you guys talk…?’” Mohamed remembers. A vehicle was hired to bring his Yamaha from his home, and the first Black Disco album was cut: a trio with no drummer. He describes his earlier formations as “experiments”—Black Disco gave Mohamed his direction. After Night Express, he went on to become a co-founder of Movement in the City, with Cape Town drummer Monty Webber. “The name was code for let’s fight the system. It was a very dark time for us, personally and politically, and their two albums including Black Teardrops (another title the censor didn’t like) came from that emotional place.”

How could such a group like that exist , survive, play during Apartheid ?
There was a strong music scene under Apartheid. Record companies were keen to exploit the newly urbanised black population in the late 1960s and seventies. The real problem for groups was venues in which to play and record companies who would release their material. Things became a lot more difficult after the Soweto uprising in 1976 and the military-dominated government of PW Botha through the eighties

Ndikho Xaba and the Natives is part of an aesthetic commitment. More broadly, the system of segregation still very important, (present ?), between the lines, in your LPs . Can we read a political process? Point of view?
Our release programme can be read as a political statement, but I think reducing music to such interpretations reduces the transcendental power of music and assumed identity. It’s the transcendence that holds the power.

Do you think jazz is a soundtrack of emancipation?
Music has the power to transcend but emancipation from economic and cultural barriers requires a lot more work.

How do you decide on the choice of reissues?
We try to identify lost South African recordings that are in demand in second-hand circles.

What could be the label’s leitmotif?
The track ‘Africa’ by Sathima Bea Benjamin.

Chris Albertyn, Sathima Bea Benjamin and Matt Temple
 

What is the Matsuli LP you are prouder? why?
“African Songbird” – its beauty and the personal connection made with Sathima…

The memory of this scene, you revive, it is still present in the South African youth?
There is a strong renaissance of jazz and many younger players are taking the journey forward.

Are you listening to the new South African scene, jazz and soul? And is it connected with the new wave of jazz in London and UK, including children and heirs of the first generation African immigrant?
I listen to a lot of the younger South African jazz players but not that much soul. I am always on the lookout for unique music. Many of the new jazz generation have started touring to Japan, the USA and Europe. We also have British musicians like Shabaka Hutchings who has recently recording a new album in South Africa. So there is a lot of cross-fertilisation. I’m sure that the South African musicians would like more exposure but increasingly as a result of the gentrification of cities like London it is difficult to sustain a strong jazz circuit.

“Night on Earth” is a record session of kora. Could you tell us more about Derek Gripper, who has produced some of South Africa’s most extraordinary musical works, fusing the country’s disparate creative traditions with styles from around the world?
I first heard Derek Gripper’s album of kora compositions played on the guitar a few years ago and I was astounded by his playing and approach. We spoke at length about an album of him playing compositions by Philip Tabane of Malombo, or including other up and coming South African musicians re-interpreting South African standards. Who knows we may still explore this further. But we took a risk to release something different from our usual agenda in order for people to appreciate his work. And slowly he is now getting further recognition, having played recently with some of his musical heroes in Mali. It’s something very unusual and therein was the appeal.

Ndikho
Xaba Shwabada

This record is a bit out of general aesthetics of Matsuli catalogue: it is a current production in which we play themes Toumani Diabate on kora … Is it a way that you keep pursuing?
We are willing to take chances and we loved Derek Gripper’s LP so much we wanted to release it. For a long time, we have also sought to find ways we can bring some of the newer jazz onto our label. This is ongoing.

Nowadays, there are many LP labels who follow as you the model, « Less Is more », I mean more quality even if it’s more expensive… but in the same time, there are also another « new » LP market, with major companies come-back and other labels, who prefer to sell cheaper. Is it the (re)creation of two camps for the LP?
We try to keep our costs as low as possible but with very specific production standards. I’m starting to see quite a few re-issue companies taking the low cost route with certain production values being compromised. I suppose we try to strike a balance between affordability and quality. We are seeing major labels starting to lean heavily on production plants with smaller labels such as ourselves being delayed in our release schedule. Whilst there are many people who are choosing vinyl because it is in vogue I am confident that our niche audience will always stick in vinyl as opposed to paying subscriptions to technology companies for the right to listen to streams.

There are more and more reissues of old LPs, and more and more record labels (major or indie) now release their new artists on LP, or EP. Do you think that the LP reissue market could ever reach saturation point?
I think that good music will always prevail amongst our customers, so it’s really important to keep our standards high. The saturation will come with sub-standard material…

Have you received many negative answers on some of the LPs, artists, unreleased tapes, you were trying to reissue?
Not yet, although licensing and claims of ownership have stopped us from considering some specific albums.

What are your next releases?
We want to issue one of the early Harari LPs and then we are also looking at an exciting project of 78s where we hope to compile a number of albums around certain themes. Most of this material has never been released outside of its original appearance on 78 shellac.

What is the LP you dream of reissuing?
The first South African jazz LP by Sathima Bea Benjamin – this was cut to acetate but is now long lost.

CHECK THE BLOG

Each month, we are focusing on a record label founded by an active digger. This month, Gerald from Jazzman Records : in our opinion the greatest reissue label of them all, a pioneering mind in the Rare Groove scene and an inspiration to all of us, starting in the early 90s with his legendary stall in Camden Town. He talks about his passion : music, vinyl records, from digging to publishing.

When did you start digging records?
The first real trip that I undertook with a specific aim to search out old records, rather than casual record shop browsing, was probably 1992 or thereabouts. I’d just started out in business and I heard a rumour that St Louis in the US was good for old records, so the plan was to go there and hope for the best, simple as that! In those days there was no internet, and unless you’re old enough to remember the pre-internet days, it’s hard to imagine that the only information you could get about records & record shops was purely word of mouth or ads in music magazines.

What LP’s did you buy at first? Do you still listen to them?
The first record I ever bought was Madness “The Return Of The Los Palmas” – I got it because it came with a free comic so I thought it was better value compared to getting just a record! It’s got a ska version of “Swan Lake” on it but these days I prefer the 1968 version by The Cats which was probably where Madness got their idea from.

Do you have a particular style or favorite period?
Different styles are often best during different periods, for instance funk from 1968-72 is often acknowledged to be the Golden Era not just for funk but all kinds of music. I also like blues from the 1930s & 40s, oddball instros from 1959-63, and jazz from all periods, although there was a bit of a lull in the 80s and 90s, but some better stuff has been made more recently.

Are you still digging’, buying vinyl, visiting record shops?
Since I moved out of London a few years ago I don’t find the time like I used to, most « digging » is done online, but when I do go to London every few weeks yes I try and find the time, mostly at Eldica, Flashback or London House of Records, which is a private dealer rather than a shop. I also still travel to the US every year and make little trips here and there, always on the lookout… Never Stop Diggin’ as the saying goes!

What was your first release on Jazzman? And why this one?
It was the late 1990s and prices were starting to get crazy high because the supply was dwindling and the demand was increasing, so it made sense to start a reissue label. I didn’t have enough money to make LPs and CDs, so I decided to start with 7”s which cost a lot less. I had this 7” by Kathleen Emery that I got from renowned dealer Bob Gibson from Boston, he sold it to me on the basis of the flipside “Evil Ways” but I preferred the A side, a funky version of “Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child” with some fat drums & bass; nobody I knew had heard of it and everyone I played it to was into it, so it seemed like a good choice.

Soul Expedition
Night Life

Why did you choose this name: Jazzman? Why this explicit reference to jazz?
I didn’t make it up, my girlfriend called me the « Jazzman » so it stuck! I decided to keep the name despite my interest in soul & funk etc, because jazz is basically the root of it all. Without jazz there wouldn’t be a lot else.

You have issued series about Spiritual Jazz … A longtime passion?
In the early 2000s I was working with Malcolm Catto doing funk reissues, but we were both into jazz too. Specifically modal jazz, or spiritual jazz as it was becoming known ie music that was derivative of John Coltrane, Sun Ra etc. We’d done quite a few funk things by this point and I didn’t want Jazzman to be known as just a funk label, so the time was right to branch out a bit. I was concerned whether or not people would be into it as it’s quite a departure from the funk stuff we were known for, but the first album contained quite a few tracks that had a bit of a groove going on eg Salah Ragab, Frank Derrick, so we gave it a go, and it seemed to work.

Your favourites on it?
I honestly can’t specify favourites, they’re all good for one reason or another. I must say I was pleased to get Lloyd Miller on there, the inclusion of his music on that album was the first time it had been issued anywhere since his own releases and I’d been looking for an excuse to get his music re-released for quite a long time.

Jef Gilson
Chant Inca

You did a lot of work about french composer Jef Gilson. How did you discover him?
When you hear a piece of music that you like, it’s natural to investigate other stuff by the same artist to see if it’s any good too. I can’t remember exactly which album of Jef’s that I first heard (probably the one on Saba) but I do know that every record of his had something on it that I enjoyed. Not only that, but he had his own sound. A lot of lesser musicians end up sounding the same, but Jef has a sound of his own, and in particularly good taste. These kind of things sit in the back of the mind, and at some point or other the concept of getting the music out there one way or another starts to form. Then it was just a matter of locating as many of his records as possible, and locating the man himself.

And could you explain the fact of an englishman did a better job than all french label about this great musician?
That I can’t explain, but I can say that I could not have done it without the help of many French people, notably Geraldine Gloro, Jerome Simonneau and Fred Martin.

The Jazzman label is famous for the essential 7” reissues serial from a few years back! How many copies did you press of the best sellers?
1000 as a rule, although some of the popular ones crept up to 2000. The rarest is JM002 by Frank Motley, we only did 500 of those, and we did some WLP of some others where we only made 50…

Riccardo Marrero
Babalonia

Some of your previous long time deleted reissues are now collectible items (Ricardo Marrero, Milton Wright Spaced…). Do you plan any repressing? What do you think of the reissues collector’s market?
I have no plans for repressing those records at the moment. They were limited and numbered editions of 1000 copies, so a repress would make a bit of a mockery of that. Perhaps in a few years, when they’re « old ». One of the reasons for making them numbered and limited is to make sure people bought them. If people thought there was an unlimited pressing and they would be around for a while, they may procrastinate with the purchase. But if they’re numbered and limited – you have to buy now because when they’re gone they’re gone! Of course this means they can command a higher price on the reissues market when they’re sold out, but that’s down to the speculators and dealers and those that slept only have themselves to blame! The reissues market is what it is, as long as there is a demand there will be someone who will sell, and prices go up and down like in any market. It can be interesting and amusing at times to stand back and watch it happen.

We heard rumors about a Jazzman reissue of Mor Thiam much sought-after afro spiritual jazz LP. Is it gonna happen?
I’ve been working on it for about seven years and I think the negotiations are coming to an end so not too long now I hope!

What could be your editorial/esthetic line?
« We dig deeper », a simple phrase that works on a number of levels. If anything, it’s a rod for my own back as it’s something I have to live up to!

What is the Jazzman LP you are prouder? why?
Sorry I can’t single out a specific LP, they all have their particular stories and memories. But the ones closest to me are probably the ones where I met the artist in person, shook their hand, listened to their story. Meeting great artists like Jef Gilson, Bobby Jackson, Lloyd Miller and many, many others can impart something special that you can’t get from an email or a phone call.

You released also the first Lp of Tumi Mogorosi, young South African drummer. What did you like in his music?
It’s breathtaking, the whole album. A masterpiece and a debut album at that. I’d have been a fool not to release it.

How do you find brand new talents? On the internet? On stage? By friends?
Tumi was recommended to me by French record guru Antoine Rajon of Nyami Nyami Records. There are no boundaries to the sources of records, ideas and talent: recommendations from friends and strangers, demos that are sent in, internet searches, anywhere that music can be heard. It’s all about keeping your ears and mind open. I’m very fussy though. Developing an artist takes a lot of time and money to do it right, so if I take the plunge, it has to be right.

What could be the label’s leitmotif?
« What is wrong with groovin’. »

The Brief Encounter
Get A Good Feeling

What is the best deal/business : to make reissues or to produce new records?
With the style of music that we do it is much easier to make reissues, but you will never sell more than a few thousand and often you only sell a few hundred. With new music you may sell just a few hundred too, BUT it’s possible to sell tens of thousands, which will never happen with a reissue. So if you have the time, skill, funding and a bit of luck, the best business is new music.

Is it harder and harder to release compilations? Is it more difficult to obtain copyright by family or producers? Do they ask more guarantees (financial, but also moral)?
It’s easier if anything as more info is online than ever before. What’s difficult is that lots of the artists that we’re interested in are either senile or dying. Obtaining copyrights has been and always will be tricky at times, for all kinds of reasons. If only it were a straightforward job. One thing’s for sure, nothing is straightforward in this business!

Nowadays, there are many LP labels who follow this model, I mean more quality even if it’s more expensive… but in same time, there are also another « new » LP market, with majors’ come-back and other labels, who prefer to sell cheaper. Is it the (re)creation of two camps for the LP?
Not sure and I’m not too fussed what others are doing, particularly the majors, I do my own thing and I do what I think is best.

Prices for rare original LP’s are getting crazy these days. What do you think of it?
They always have been crazy, it’s just a matter of getting used to it. It’s all about supply and demand, and what people are willing to pay.

There are more and more reissues of old LPs, and more and more record labels (major or indie) now release their new artists on LP, or EP. Do you think that the LP reissue market could ever reach saturation point?
Unlikely in that LPs, unlike 7”s, are expensive to produce and the pressing runs are greater. This means that unless they’re super hot they tend not to get repressed, so the cycle of « new release – deletion » is quicker. We have certainly seen saturation in the 45s market, specifically RnB reissues, where the market has been flooded and records kept in print. The result is saturation with 1000s of unwanted, cheap records everywhere.

Uncle Funkenstein

These days more and more bootlegs reissues of rare LP’s arrive on the market (recently World Experience Orchestra, Rick Mason or 1619 Bad Ass Band just to name a few…). I imagine you are, like us, very annoyed by this. How do you react regarding this and what is the correct answer as far as you are concerned?
I’d like to meet the person making them and have a chat. I’d like to introduce them to some of the artists they’re ripping off, face to face. I remember a notorious funk bootlegger back in the day in my office when James Bell (from the Highlighters) was there. We spoke about bootlegs and he was hiding behind the speakers. He’s a coward, just like all bootleggers are. They never reveal their names or identity, and the Funky Planet people are no different. They’re nothing more than criminals out to rip artists off and make money from their cheap and nasty bootlegs. They contribute nothing to the preservation of historic music, they don’t care about the damage they are doing; all they care about is making their dirty money.

Have you received many negative answers on some of the LPs, artists, unreleased tapes, you were trying to reissue?
Not exactly no, quite the opposite in fact. Many people are delighted to be able to hear the music on a rare LP for a few pounds that would otherwise cost hundreds or thousands, not to mention months or years searching.

What are your next releases?
James Tatum, Greg Foat, Belgium Popcorn Story, Nat Birchall… There are 30+ more…!

What is the LP you dream of reissuing?
There are a few that have been denied us for various reasons, such as John Coltrane “Cosmic”, and Dusko Gojkovich “Swinging Macedonia”. Several years ago I wanted to do East New York Ensemble de Music, but the Smithsonian said they would not allow any of their albums to be reissued. Then a year or two later they let someone else do it and there it was! You can’t have them all I suppose. Someone else will do these others one day I’m sure, and there’s plenty more out there besides.

YOU NEED MORE ?

CHECK HIS TOP 5, SPECIAL UK JAZZ

As JC, he waited to be 33 to reveal his talents to the world. Born in Los Angeles, the saxophonist was brought up in a musical environment and began his professional career with new millenary. He has since played with numerous musicians, in various styles. In the Gerald Wilson big band, who was a guide for him, and with leaders such as Stanley Clarke or Raphael Saadiq, but also with Snoop Dogg or Lauryn Hill. During all those years, he took his time to find his own voice. His sound, a true singularity who is nevertheless reminiscent of his elders. A well-known partner of singer Kendrick Lamar, friend of bass player Thundercat, Kamasi Washington has now achieved fame of his own with his astonishing debut solo record, released by Braindfeeder, Flying Lotus’s label. Consisting in more than 3 hours of music, in a boxset of 3 LPs, the totemic ‘Epic’ finally puts this composer on the frontline. No doubt, a new Jazz star is born!

Photos by Mike Park

You grew up in Los Angeles what did you listen to as a teenager?
So the answer to this question is a little complicated because in my early teenage years is when I started to take music really seriously and I was kind of all over the place. I was really into Hip Hop and RnB from my earlier childhood, I had already liked jazz but by then I was really into it, I was also getting into European Classical music because of new friends I was making at my high school which was a music academy. So I was listening records like Snoop Dogg’s “The Doggfather”, Tupac “All Eyez On Me”, Nas “It Was Written”, Busta Rhymes “When Disaster Strikes”, Lee Morgan “The Gigolo”, John Coltrane “Transitions”, McCoy Tyner “The Real McCoy”, Eric Dolphy “Out to Lunch”, Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring”, Prokofiev’s “Romeo and Juliet” and a lot of other stuff.

When did you start music? Why saxophone?
My father is a musician so I started music very young at around 2 on drums, then around 5 I started playing the piano, then clarinet at 7. When I was around 11 or 12 I got really into Art Blakey’s The Jazz Messengers. My dad who is a saxophone player wouldn’t let me play saxophone because he wanted me to learn clarinet first. In fact he told me that they were the same and if I couldn’t play the clarinet then I wouldn’t be able to play the saxophone. So by 12 I was really trying to play songs from my favorite jazz records all of which had saxophone players. So the clarinet is similar to the saxophone but it’s not the same at all but I didn’t know that so I was trying to learn this music and it was so hard to try to play Charlie Parker solos on a clarinet and have them sound like he did. So one day my dad left his soprano sax out and I took it and from the first note I was already better than I was on clarinet. It was crazy because I didn’t even really know the fingerings but I instantly figured them out and I had been listening to so many saxophone players that I already sounded like one. There was no going back for me at that point my dad had to give in. It was kind of surreal.

What were/are your mentors? References?
My first and biggest mentor is my father Rickey Washington. He started me in music and has guided me my whole life. But I’ve learned a lot from many different people. After my father I would say a man named Reggie Andrew’s was my second biggest mentor. He was also my father’s teacher and a staple educational figure in the African American music community of Los Angeles since the 70s. Everyone in my band and most of the musicians that are really doing a lot in music in Los Angeles come up through him. Then there was the great Gerald Wilson who was one of Reggie Andrew’s heroes. I started with Gerald very young and played with him for almost 15 years and learned so much about the history of jazz, he was born in 1918 so he was there first hand. All of my idols were his friends. Harmonically he was my biggest influence so much of what I play comes from all those years hearing the dense one of kind harmonies he wrote for hi big band. There are literally dozens of others that I can and probably should mention like Issac Smith, Stanley Clarke, Harvey Mason, plus many many more but my dad, Reggie, and Gerald are my top 3.

Cherokee

What is the influence of Gospel and Soul in your music?
I mentioned earlier that when I first picked up the sax the connection was instantaneous. So literally that next Sunday my dad took me to play at my uncle’s church. My uncle played organ and piano. So my dad still hadn’t taught me the fingerings though I had figured most of them out by my self. Before this my dads approach to teaching me was very technical we would read every thing and used a lot of method books but when I switched to sax he wanted to develop my ear so he took me to church to play gospel. I grew up going to church so I knew all the songs but hadn’t played any of them before. So I had to use my ears and figure everything out. It was a little hard at first but after a while I could play any song that I could sing in my head. So you can say that I really learned how to play music through gospel. And I’ve always played gospel and I still to this day play at church.

Is there a specific California sound, for jazz or hip hop? If so how would you define it?
Though there is a vibe to the State of California as a whole but it’s too big to speak of one sound for it there are lots of sounds. Even my City of Los Angeles is really big and there are lots pockets that each have their own sound. The sound that many people are now starting to recognize is the sound from an area in south central Los Angeles called The Leimert Park Village. There is definitely a very specific sound from there. This sound really derives from all over south central, and the east side of Los Angeles but Leimert is the hub. That sound that you here on my album and the jazz elements of Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp A Butterfly comes from Leimert. That’s where myself and everyone in my band came up plus people like Terrace Martin and Issac Smith came up there too. It’s the center of African American Culture in Los Angeles. Growing up there we had three clubs that we went to. The World Stage, a club that jazz great and LA native Billy Higgins started. 5th Street Dicks the late night heavy modern jazz club that bands like Black Note grew out of. And Project Blowed a underground hip hop club that spawned groups like Freestyle Fellowship. We went to all of them all of the time. So the jazz from that area has roots in the classic forms of jazz from the world stage with a modern fire behind it with large influences from hip hop, RnB, and funk plus there’s an avant garde legacy left by masters like Horace Tapscott that’s mixed in there too.

You recorded three records in three years. Why such an emergency? What did you have to say?
So being a musician of a certain caliber a demand will grow for your services. Myself and everyone in my band were always gigging and going on the road. However at first and for a long time at least for me it wasn’t in jazz. My first tour was with Snoop Dogg and I stayed with him for years. Then my next big gig was with Raphael Saadiq and then Lauryn Hill. I love all styles of music and really enjoyed playing with all three of those legendary musicians but jazz was where my heart was. But during this time the only time I played jazz was in LA when I got home off the road. The same was true of many of my friends so we started recording and writing and playing as much as we could. I was making pretty good money so I built a recording studio in the back of my house. And I made a few records. The first two were just to document what we were doing musically. The gospel record I made for my grandfather as a present. I didn’t really push any of the records out but I had to make them to keep myself intact.

Do you feel you have evolved in terms of aesthetics during the last ten years ? more on the saxophone or in the compositions?
Yes I’ve grown a lot on the saxophone and in composition. First there’s so much music that I’ve been exposed to over the last ten years that has inspired me in my own music. Then on the saxophone I’ve come to a place where I truly except who I am and I am able to play what ever comes to me instead of feeling the need to prove who I am. It sounds really subtle but it’s a really big difference so often musicians get in their own way because they want to show that they can do this and that, and they know this and that. So they end up just playing this and that and never get to what really inside of them. It’s difficult because there’s the need to hone in your skills and a pressure to show that you have skills before other musicians will accept you. But I’ve learned to look past all of that because the greatest music that I will ever be able to make is the music that comes from my heart. In composition I’ve evolved in the size and scope of my ambitions. I no longer limit myself in what I hear in my head I just write it and figure out how to make it happen later.

You play the sax a lot on this record but in the end the listener gets to meet a new composer, a real author. How do you deal with this double hat?
Well the only real difficulty is that there are only 24 hours in a day. So what ends up happening to me is my focus becomes seasonal. So some weeks and even months at times I’m just really into the sax and I’m developing different aspects of the horn or different concepts of things I can play. Then some times I’m really inspired to write and music is just flowing out of me. And I like it this way because sometimes you need to step away from things to get a good perspective I feel that when I step away from the saxophone to compose when I come back to my regiment on the saxophone I’m rejuvenated and excited to get back in with a fresh perspective. And when I haven’t composed in a while I feel like the music that come is fresh and uninhibited by things I’ve already done.

Re Run Home

How long have you been working with The Next Step?
Is a band I started about ten years ago but it comes from a collective we now call the West Coast Get Down. The West Coast Get Down are a group of musicians that I’ve been friends with my whole life. They are Ronald and Stephen Bruner, Cameron Graves, Miles Mosley, Ryan Porter, Brandon Coleman, Tony Austin, and Patrice Quinn. We’ve been making music together our whole lives. I’ve known Ronald since I was three and Stephen since he was born, their dad and my dad played together. Brandon went to the same elementary school as Ronald and Stephen we met almost ten years before he started playing piano. Tony Austin is a little older than us but he went to the same school and we met him at the same time. I met Ryan in junior high in a program called Jazz America and I met Miles and Cameron in high school. I met Patrice Quinn last in my first year of collage. So we’ve been together a long time.

How did you record? Is it the music sum accumulated for seven years?
So about three years ago all the members of The West Coast Get Down decided to take a whole month off from doing any shows or tours and just focus on each other and record each others music. So we were in the studio 7 days a week from 11am-2am for thirty days. And we recorded an incredible amount of music like 190 songs, 8 albums, almost 2 terabytes of music. So I walked away with 45 songs recorded! My new album The Epic is made of my favorite tracks from that 45. For my music the whole band, two drummers, upright bass, electric bass, piano, keyboards, sax, trombone, and trumpet all recorded together in the same room. I wanted everyone to feel free to be spontaneous. If you try overdub then everyone is locked to what ever you record first. I encouraged them all to be as open as they wanted and to shape the music as they heard it. Then for the nine tracks that have strings and choir I wrote that music around what the band had already recorded. I felt like I would get the best of both worlds that way. I could the arrangements be as rich and full as I wanted them to be without limiting the spontaneous creativity.

Your universe reminds us a lot of Horace Tapscott, your California elder.
Yes I love Horace Tapscott! I love his music, his philosophies, and everything he did for the community that I grew up in. I only got to play with him once when I was really young at jam session at The World Stage. But his band The Pan African Peoples Arkestra has continued after his death under the leadership of Michael Sessions and I’ve played with them many times. Yes I’m a big fan all the records that came out on Black Jazz Records. They were really popular in LA and very important to that sound of Leimert Park that I talked about earlier.

How is the crossing of the jazz epic?
The Epic is doing very well so far people are really into it! I hope to bring as many of the members of The Next Step and The West Coast Get Down on the tour as I can. I hope we’re able to bring this music all over the world. I feel like the music we are making speaks to people in way that has been missing for a while. In LA we play at non-jazz clubs all the time for people who if you asked them before the show if they liked jazz they would say absolutely not but after they’re so into it they fighting to try and figure out how they can get more of the music. So we want to go out and share this all over the world. Hopefully it will happen.

How/when did you sign on Brainfeeder?
I meet Flying Lotus a long time ago when I was like 17 I won the John Coltrane competition and he was there with Ravi Coltrane. I think he was like 13 the same age as Thundercat who was playing with me. I think he and Thundercat stayed in touch. I didn’t see Lotus again till about 7 or 8 years ago. I knew that he and Thundercat had been working together and we randomly ran into each other at a jam session. Then a few years later he asked me if I’d like to do a record on Brainfeeder and I was like YES! Being on Brainfeeder has been great. It has definitely given me a lot more exposure and introduced me to a wider audience for sure but more than that it was cool because Lotus encouraged me to do what ever I wanted and that opened my mind to it’s self.

(this interview was published on a shorter version in French, for Jazz News Magazine)

 

His website, with european tour dates (november 15th, Paris Le Trabendo)

http://kamasiwashington.com/

 

His Top 5

Eric Dolphy

Hat and Beard

“What a lineup! Tony Williams, Bobby Hutcherson, Richard Davis, Freddie Hubbard, and of course Eric Dolphy. This remains the freshest Blue Note album in terms of concept and sound.”

 
 
Herbie Hancock

Dolphin Dance

“Herbie is the master of mood and melody. With this song he creates a relaxed atmosphere I’ve never encountered anywhere else in music. It’s one of my favorites.”

 
 
Dexter Gordon

Society Red

“I love Dexter’s sound, he has so much personality and feeling. This song feels like New York, the kind of New York that I fell in love with.”

 
 
John Coltrane

Blue Train

“What can be said about a master ? This is the documented beginning of Trane as a leader. It’s majestic”

 
 
Cannonball Adderley

Autumn Leaves

“A true classic. Miles and Cannonball : one of the best pairings in music.”

When did you start digging records?
I started in 1979 /80 looking for funk records in junk stores.

What Lps did you buy at first? Do you still listen to them?
I had a Dizzy Gillespie 10 inch, some ELO of course, Sex Pistols, Gary Numan, Rolling Stones, then the first record that hit me hard was Steel Pulse ‘Handsworth Revolution’. What a f…ing record! Most of my records have no groove left in them and I buy them five times.

Do you have a particular style or favorite period? And why?
I used to love 50/60s New York Jazz because they created such a competitive environment that each musician just got better and better as John Coltrane fought Sonny Rollins, if Coltrane won then Rollins would go woodshedding for six months coming up with new techniques. But ultimately Coltrane is the one I listen to now, Bill Evans, Yusef Lateef all the soft spiritual sound. I cannot handle the wild free jazz anymore…

What was your first issue?
Well we released the classic Bossa LP by Os Ipanemas, those old trio/bossa records from Brazil in the 60’s had an incredible sound so heavy, simple but the sound right in your face.

Why Mr Bongo?
I flirted with the name Unkle Funkie for a while, but then the Mr Bongo name just felt right, we never looked back…

The latin tinge?
I toured Joe Arroyo when I worked at World Circuit in 1988. I would got to Venezuela and Colombia every month looking mainly for Fania reissues, cumbia, colombian salsa and cuban reissues. Then I started collecting brazilian so the label followed this path, it was my passion for those sounds.

What could be the editorial/esthetic line?
Music has to be amazing/original , and  when we release it we must make the best quality we can. From using the greatest cutting engineers like Tom Coyne, Walter Coelho to Andy Edwards our amazing designer and printing the sleeves in Japan, we always strive to be better. Music is so hard these days: the customer demands the best.

How do you decide on the choice of reissues?
Sometimes it’s timing like the Hareton + Meta EP which was just being discovered, other times I have been trying to reissue them for more than fifteen years like Olli Ahvenlahti… Or the Lula Cortes album ‘Paebiru’ which I discovered when we had been asked to hunt down the bootleggers of this holy grail of brazilian music.

What could be your leitmotif  of the label?
Quality & originality, because we want to be the best at being different.

Your were well known for your brazilian touch, and still appreciated for that (like the 7″ issues), but now – and for a long time in fact – you do reissues in other styles, like ‘The Poet’. Is it difficult to go out your (supposed) speciality?
I think if you have a good musical ear you can appreciate Jazz like ‘The Poet’, or reggae like our Prince productions and our great Brazil 45 series… We find that our customers know that when Mr Bongo  releases a record it is going to be worth a listen… I  do not think it is good to pigeon hole a label too much then you cannot do other projects… As you know, we also release art house films and documentaries…

What is the best deal/business : to make reissue or to produce new records?
In  the old days you could release just what you like and it would sell enough. Now you have to do some research and make sure there are enough people who will want the record as well.

Is it two different jobs?
Tracking down artists labels can be detective work, producing and releasing amazing records is a different skillset but they are all driven by the same passion for the music. Then they are forged from this passion together.

Have you received many negative answers on some of the LPs you were trying to reissue?
Not that I can remember, maybe now we will !

There is more and more reissues of old LPs. Do you think that the LP reissue market could ever reach saturation point?
Not really there are so many great records by the time they are all reissued. It will be time to do it again for our grandchildren.

What are your next releases?
Horseman ‘Dawn of the Dread’, Olli Ahvenalhti ‘The Poet’, ‘Os Brazoes’, Tom Ze (Self titled LP)…

What is the LP you dream of reissuing?
Pedro Santos Krishnanda, Ananda Shankar, so many…

http://www.MRBONGO.com/

SOME TRACKS SELECTED BY DAVID BUTTLE

Aldea de Ogum

Milk And Honey

Did You Give The World Some Love Today Baby

Heaven

Dancing In Outer Space

Chant To Mother Earth

WHAT DID NEW YORK CITY REPRESENT FOR A YOUNG JAZZMAN? A PLACE TO BE?

When I was ten years old my parents decided to move to New York City from my birthplace of Jacksonville, Florida. Just after arriving, my mother entered me in the famous Apollo Theater “Amateur Hour”. During those, the early fifties, almost all contestants were singers. I was the only instrumentist ! But I placed at the top. The song I played ‘Because Of You’. Also during these years if you placed at the top, your reward was a work experience with the Red Prysock Orchestra.

WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS OF THE CITY ? YOU LIVED AT FIRST IN HARLEM, THEN IN BROOKLYN: WHAT WERE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THOSE TWO PARTS OF THE CITY?

Of course for a child that age schooling and getting to know the city occupied most of teenage years. Around eleven/twelve, my mother’s brother had a lot of hip LPs which I occupied myself listening to. I had already been doing that since the age of six/seven at home, in Jacksonville. My mother’s father had original 78 rpms Jazz At The Philharmonic presentations of Norman Granz, which I was already “scatting” to. So I knew what was hip and what was ‘has been’ by the age of eight, so amongst those LPs of my uncle I discovered Max Roach and Clifford Brown At Basin Street on EmArcy. I knew immediately that it was just about the hippest thing I’d ever heard and right there I made the decision that this would be my life’s work. So between eleven/twelve until graduation from high school at seventeen years of age, most of my working hours were spent listening to everything.

YOU PLAYED AS A SIDEMAN, AND FURTHER AS A LEADER, DURING THE SIXTIES… WHAT WERE YOUR MAIN INFLUENCES? JACKIE MCLEAN? MAX ROACH? DIZZY?

My main influence, until I found Clifford Brown, was Charlie Shavers at that point. New York’s Harlem where I grew up was a sort of paradise. From my house located on 137street & eight avenue, I was in walking distance of two main jam session spots : Count Basie’s bar and a place called Brankers. It was at those two places that musicians young and old came on Monday nights to be heard in the hope of getting in and being accepted into the scene. I didn’t participate yet, just listened. I went away to Washington, between eighteen and twenty one, but I decided in 1963 to return home because I felt I was ready to participate. My family had moved to Brooklyn and there was a club in that part of town named Blue Coronet where many soon-to-be major figures were playing. I too jammed there and one night I met a fella named Jim Harrison who had started his own Jackie McLean Fan Club. He told me that maybe Jackie McLean was looking for a new trumpeter and that I should go see him. He gave me his contact, and I went to meet him. The rest is history ! Without having barely, if at all, heard what he sounded like, Jackie put me on his next recording for Blue Note : It’s Time. That changed my life forever.

YOU WERE (WITH WOODY SHAW) ONE OF THE CATS ON TRUMPET… HOW COULD YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT RECORD COMPANIES DIDN’T OFFER TO YOU A GOOD DEAL?

For the next couple of years, I performed and recorded with Jackie. He was my mentor into the scene. It was also during this period that Alfred Lions sold his masterpiece, Blue Note Records, to Transamerica Corp/United Artist. Both myself and Woody Shaw had been placed on significant Blue Note recordings but for some reason Alfred Lions would not give us a record session of our own, which had been up to that point what usually happened with young lions trumpeters brought in by established stars within the label, and that is you would be given your own recording as leader. It would take Woody Shaw nearly five more years before he got his chance with Columbia, curtailing Dexter Gordon.

IN THE EARLY SEVENTIES, WHAT WAS THE PLACE OF JAZZ IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS? WAS IT HARDER AND HARDER FOR YOUNG MUSICIANS LIKE YOU?

One cannot be certain, but the last A&R guy of the original Blue Note label, Duke Pearson – himself trumpeter as well as pianist by the way – before Alfred Lions sold the company, perhaps didn’t push for us to record as leaders, as the A&R before him, Ike Quebec, did for Freddie Hubbard. Speaking of Freddie Hubbard, I first met him when he had just arrived to New York. I was seventeen, he was twenty one. Since that moment we were friends and confidants until his death.

THAT WAS WHY YOU DECIDED TO CREATE STRATA EAST?

With respect to recording contracts, it is as much about who in the business, A&R, managers, agents, record label execs, etc. will champion your cause and more often it is those elements more than your artistry which gets you there. As mentioned Woody Shaw, as good as he was, had to wait until the mid seventies before being championed. I decided in 1970 to just go ahead and get involved with the whole process; being a musician artist, composing, arranging, and issuing my recordings with a company I would create. I had already in 1969 made my first LP as a leader for Alan Bates while he was still an executive at Polydor in London, “The Ringer”, featuring my first quartet which included Stanley Cowell.

COULD YOU TELL ME MORE ABOUT YOUR PARTNERSHIP WITH STANLEY COWELL ? HOW LONG YOU HAVE KNOWN HIM FOR? WAS HE A KIND OF ALTER EGO? HOW DID YOU WORK TOGETHER?

Stanley Cowell and I met for the first time at the first rehearsal to start the new Max Roach quintet in 1967. From That moment until now we became close friends and confidents. Three years later we decided to record a big band and shop it to the labels that existed at the time, including the major indies. We didn’t find interest, so right then and there I decided we do the whole “9 yards” ourselves. There was not yet the thought of a record label, just get this recording “Music Inc & Big Band” into the market.

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THIS NAME STRATA EAST? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

To make a long story short, researching everything about how the industry companies did it, we went about the business of record (LP) in manufacturing of distribution. We didn’t have a name for the label yet, but Stanley knew some musician colleagues in Detroit, Michigan – The Contemporary Jazz Quintet, Kenny Cox/Charles Moore – who had already started a musician-owned music production company named Strata. We decided to call our operations Strata East, meaning the eastern side of the USA for Strata. We were completely separate companies but ideologically linked : “musician owned”. Strata East was born.

WAS IT A KIND OF COOPERATIVE ? ALTERNATIVE? AND DID YOU CHOOSE WHO YOU SIGNED?

Back to making a long story shorter : the jazz radio disc-jokeys at a radio station at the time WLIB started playing the LP and we slowly started getting small orders from “Mom & Pops” one-stop distributors, and we also distributed through another musician run company JCOA headed by Carla Bley and Mike Mantler which lasted for several years. Other musicians, some known, some unknown, began asking how we did it and could they join. I decided there would be no artist under contract. The artist would have to produce his own product just as Stanley and I had. We, Strata East, would serve as their conduit to the market place with 70/80 payback to them. IT WAS A GOOD DEAL… Some people thought it was a crazy idea… The traditional thought being that if you start a record label – and you want to make money – you put an artist under contractual control. I and Stanley decided that since out of necessity we had financed our LP which launched the label, we not only owned the masters but if we let others join so too would they own their masters since the requirement to join was them having already financed their recording thus become the major recipient of the proceeds. The result of this idea didn’t really become apparent until we issued Gil Scott-Heron’s “Winter in America”.

SCOTT-HERON, CLIFFORD JORDAN, CECIL MC BEE, HEATH BROTHERS… WHAT WAS THE LINK BETWEEN ALL THESE MUSICIANS?  WAS THERE A SORT OF ARTISTIC DIRECTION? ESTHAETIC LINE?

Prior to Gil Scott-Heron’s product, the artist who really contributed much to the Strata East formula was Clifford Jordan who in essence had already busied himself with producing at least four products which he was to bring to the label. Then many of our colleagues joined : like you mentioned, the bass player Cecil McBee, the brotherhood Heath –Jimmy, Percy and Tootie –, Bill Lee, Spike’s father, the Monk’s saxophonist Charlie Rouse, Billy Harper and many others…

YOUR EXPOSURE CHANGED AFTER THE SUCESS OF WINTER IN AMERICA. HOW MANY RECORDS DID YOU PUT OUT ON STRATA EAST IN THE END?

With the success of Scott-Heron, the “major recipient” idea quickly caught until at one point we were carrying fifty titles through 1982. From the inception of Strata East in 1971 until 1982 I kept things going while still performing both with the quartet and occasionally with large ensembles. I kept the label going by leasing to many companies throughout Europe, Scandinavia and Japan. By doing so the LPs always found their way back to America and into the retail store that were alive in those hey days, I.C., Tower, HMV, etc.

MOST OF US ARE FASCINATED BY THE STRATA EAST RECORD LABEL. THERE IS ONE PARTICULAR RECORD FROM THAT CATALOGUE THAT HAS REMAINED MYSTERIOUS TO US. IT’S JOHN GORDON’S “EROTICA SUITE” FROM 1978. CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT THIS RECORD?

John Gordon & I became colleagues in a loft we shared around the corner from the storied 89 East Broadway loft both of which were a vital part of the mid-sixties loft jazz scene melting pot for new modern be-bop players and new avant garde players. Some years after Stanley & I got the label going John decided to join and the result was his “Erotica Suite” (and before that “Step By Step” published in 1976) which we also performed on. It is still a recording I very much enjoy. Sadly John passed away some years ago.

GENERALLY SPEAKING WHY ARE SOME OF THE STRATA EAST RECORDS SO RARE? I THINK ABOUT BILLY PARKER’S FOURTH WORLD, SHAMEK FARRAH, MBOOM PERCUSSIONS…

Generally speaking many of the Strata East recordings are rare now because they were one-off recordings by the artist who afterwards disappeared from the scene never to return. Billy Parker (Fourth World) and Shamek Farah by example. In the case of MBoom the anticipated release on Strata East never materialized because the participants decided to release it elsewhere. Mboom was a collective group essentially all leaders of it.

WERE COPIES DESTROYED OR WAS THERE JUST NO ENOUGH BELIEF IN THEIR COMMERCIAL SUCCESS AT THAT TIME?

Any LP copies of commercially released Strata East recordings were never destroyed. At the end of a deal with any particular artist that artist was given their masters and any LPs that may have been left in stock to sell for themselves. No deal was ever made with any artist based on whether or not it would be a commercial success. It was made because the artist wanted and needed to have a product commercially issued and came to us to help them accomplish that. Obviously some were more successful than others.

BY THE WAY, YOU STILL LISTEN TO YOUR OLD RECORDS? ON LP?

Rarely do I listen to my own vintage LPs because I don’t want to damage them with the needle. I do from time to time listen to them on CD issues.

AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE END OF THE SEVENTIES? WHY DID THE STRATA EAST ADVENTURE FADE AWAY? YOU DISAPPEARED DURING THE EIGHTIES BUT YOUR NAME AND THE STRATA EAST LABEL WERE STILL WELL KNOWN BY MUSIC LOVERS…

After 1982, I decided to rest things for a while. Strata East never ceased ! As long as I am alive it lives. The cult thing about the label started to happen long before the demise of the LP because I operated very quietly, no fanfare. So people were always wondering what happened to Strata East. Well, it wasn’t the traditional record operation although it facially had the look of an up and running operation. In 1989 I retooled the masters of myself and Stanley and a few other original colleagues of the label, and reissued some twenty five recordings of the catalogue on CD. Those CDs found their way to the market exactly as I had done before, by leasing overseas and they found their way back to the USA stores. Younger musicians and entrepreneurs who have taken a look at the Strata East model are now issuing their recordings with that model in mind. You own your own master and you should be the “major recipient”.

(c) Jimmy Katz

BACK TO THE EIGHTIES. IT WAS A NEW AGE OF JAZZ : WYNTON MARSALIS, AND YOUNG TRADITIONNAL CATS ; HOW DID YOU LOOK AT THIS PHENOMENA? A KIND OF COME-BACK TO THE PAST? A FAKE IDEA?

With respect to a new age of jazz unless newer musicians have assimilated the original giants, what is called new age means nothing. And one can hear that in a lot of them. I’m not unhappy with the state of things however for there are a few of us still “taking no prisoners” on the bandstand keeping things honest. The superiority of the originals still reigns supreme.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST, YOU PLAYED IN JAZZ AT LINCOLN CENTER END OF OCTOBER 2011 FOR A TRIBUTE TO COLTRANE’S AFRICA BRASS…

The Africa Brass thing is an idea of Reggie Workman. The original scores by Eric Dolphy were long ago lost. I resurrected them from the grooves of the LPs and created additional choir to it. This was presented like that at Lincoln Center.

DO YOU THINK, AFTER ALL THOSE YEARS, THE HOLY GHOST OF COLTRANE STILL HAUNTING ALL THE JAZZ?

You know, John Coltrane still is and will always be the last definitive model for this music, far superior to the brand new generations. And I have always been on the disciples to carry that enduring message.

YOU CAME BACK AFTER TWENTY FIVE YEARS IN FRONT OF JAZZ ON BLUE NOTE RECORDS, THE LABEL WHERE YOU BEGAN TO RECORD IN SIXTIES… HOW DO YOU LOOK AT THIS LOOP? AND WHAT DID IT CHANGE AFTER ALL THOSE YEARS?

Lastly, I did the recent Blue Note to prove a point. A major record operation if it so chooses – that is, follow the wishes of its president – can make any recording FLY. Not even Bruce Lundvall (former boss) could save the original intent of Blue Note once EMI was monopolized by Terra Firma.

YOU ARE CELEBRATING YOUR FIFTIETH CAREER ANNIVERSARY IN 2014. WHAT STAGE PROJECTS DO YOU HAVE?

For the coming 2014 celebration of my fiftieth year I will perform on stage as I began my career with the small combo format, quartet and sometimes quintet. It is where I have always lived no matter my occasional run with the big band format. First I will be introducing my new combo featuring a great relatively new guitarist Bruce Edwards, a great new young pianist Theo Hill, a great new young bassist Devin Starks, and the great seasoned former Herbie Hancock drummer Gene Jackson.

FOR THIS ANNIVERSARY, WOULD NOT IT BE THE OPPORTUNITY ALSO TO PUBLISH A BOXSET OF YOUR ACTIVITY ON STRATA EAST? FOR INSTANCE ON MOSAIC?

Mosaic and Strata East have released two 3CDsets of me which one could say is like a boxset together : Mosaic Select 20 which is a combination of “Live at Slugs Vol. I & II” and “Live in Tokyo”, and Mosaic Select 37 which is a combination of three recordings – the 1970 recording which launched Strata East, “Music Inc & Big Band” (See here TV Show jazz session in Paris 1971), the 1975 big band recording “Impact”, and a 1979 recording made with the NDR radio jazz orchestra. We’ll see what else we collaborate on for the near future.

COULD WE IMAGINE A TOUR IN DUET WITH STANLEY COWELL?

At some point during the year perhaps my colleague Stanley will join me to reprise the quartet Music Inc.

DID NEW YORK CHANGE AFTER ALL THESE YEARS?

New York indeed has changed since I debuted in 1964. For one thing only a handful (if that) of the original modern jazz innovators and the generation before me are still alive. New players like when I came along could rub shoulders with those giants every night because there were so many of them playing the New York club scene. You could hear and see them live, meet them, and maybe get a chance to perform with them if they liked what you were doing. The scenario for that has changed.