Matt Temple is a living encyclopedia when it comes to South African Grooves. From Jive, Disco or the incredible local Jazz scene, the Matsuli Blog (with Matt Temple in London, and Chris Albertyn in South Africa) has been over the years a priceless source of information for anybody interested in the subject. The quality of its releases has been one of the most consistent of recent years from the Jazzy Disco sound of Dick Khoza to the incredible Spiritual Jazz sound of Batsumi or Sathima Bea Benjamin. Here’s the story behind this phenomenal record archiving experience.

When did you start digging records?
I started buying records in the mid-seventies when I was a teenager but this wasn’t really digging. I would be saving up money and buying albums I read about or friends recommended.

What LPs did you buy at first? Do you still listen to them?
The first LPs I got were albums by the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin. Pretty soon I moved to punk, post-punk, ska and reggae LPs by the Clash, Specials, Joy Division, Bob Marley and others. I’ve probably heard these LPs too much but I do still listen to them from time to time.

Do you have a particular style or favorite period?
I listen to a lot of music from many different periods and genres. But when it comes to collecting I particularly like Congolese rumba from the 1960s, East African musiki wa dans from the seventies, West African latin and manding sounds as well as lots of tropical styles from cumbia, salsa through to reggae and funk. The period 1960-1980 is key.

Are you still digging’, buying vinyl, visiting record shops?
I visit second hand stores in London regularly but the internet has normalized pricing so chance findings are rare. I love visiting new record stores, especially when travelling, mostly believing that I might find something of interest. I was recently in Cartagena and picked up a great stack of cumbia and salsa originals.

What was your first release on Matsuli?
This was Dick Kloza’s Chapita LP in June 2010.

 
Why did you choose this name: Matsuli?
It was based on the South African Motella label design and is a combination of people’s names.

What could be your editorial/aesthetic line?
Music archaeologists bringing lost musical recordings back to life. And we focus on bringing back original albums, rather than compilations.

How to describe your work? Memory? historian? journalist? witness?
We are on the one hand archivists bringing back to the public important musical works that have been lost, and on the other hand curators as we selecting specific recordings that will be commercially viable.

Do you think Batsumi, the mythical combo of Soweto (you released their two recordings of the mid-1970s), is one of the best musical synthesis between local rhythmic and harmonic jazz? How this soundtrack combines spirituality, with the writings of Frantz Fanon and the impulses of Steve Biko, the soul-funk grooves and the more traditional melodic lines?
As archivists we are left with physical artefacts in the form of vinyl LPs, or master tapes. There are many groups missing from recognition, groups that for whatever reason were unable to record their material. But Batsumi are an incredible group and their albums – together with those from Malombo, Xoliso, Malopoets and others – mark a high-point for indigenous afro jazz in South Africa.

Batsumi Group Shot
 

“African Songbird”, Sathima Bea Benjamin’s LP, is one of the biggest holy grail that you have reissued. All the spirit of this session of homecoming is reflected in ‘Africa’, a love song and a political declaration. The same year she gave birth to Tsidi, now female rapper Jean Grae. How did you work with this singer? Do you see a sign of fate that she died just after this reissue?
We signed a contract with her and Rashid Vally who sponsored the original sessions. Matsuli launched the reissue over three days in Cape Town where I had a chance to spend time with her, talking about the past and the future. It was very sad to learn of her death just a few months after we had re-issued the LP. At the time I wrote this reflection: “Hi Rashid, is it true?”, “Yes Matt she is on the other side.” With what feels like a physical blow to the body I try to make sense of it all. Barely a month earlier I was in Cape Town for what was to be Sathima’s swan song: Observatory celebrating the reissue of her 1976 masterpiece African Songbird that I’d just reissued on my label. Although suffering from flu Sathima commanded the room with the voice of an angel. The electric atmosphere and crowded space only enhanced the palpable sense of being in the presence of greatness. As we mark Sathima’s birthday today I’m still trying to make sense of it all. Her long struggle to be heard, never playing on her African roots and resolutely uncommercial with a complete commitment to classic jazz idioms. And a big shadow cast by her partner Abdullah Ibrahim, the challenges of motherhood exacerbated by exile and an uneasy homecoming from the Chelsea Hotel in New York where she said she felt most at home. Sathima had the unique ability to strike first at your heart, not unlike the experience of hearing Billie Holiday for the first time. She cites hearing Billie’s performance in Lady Sings the Blues as being pivotal to her development as a singer. And Sathima’s original compositions like Africa and Nations in Me eschew the commonly prescribed categories of race and nationhood propagated by Apartheid. It’s a powerful combination. Her final performance at Tagore’s was highly anticipated and packed shoulder-to-shoulder. Some initial microphone issues before Sathima took to the stage, backed by the Hilton Schilder Trio, to perform one more time her classic songbook tunes, laments and the anthem Africa. “I’ve been gone much too long/and I’m glad to say that I’m home, I’m home to stay…” I was so happy for her despite the knowledge that perhaps this might all be too late. We spoke late into the evening at the Labia Cinema on Sunday and at the Mahogany Room on Tuesday about taking this forward. Too late, and now she’s on the other side. And that’s our lament: that home is still the other side.

In the liner notes of Inhlupeko Soul Jazzmen, it says: «South African jazz players felt a strong affinity with John Coltrane, who had died only a couple of years earlier.» Indeed, this record could have been also recorded on Blue Note or Prestige. How do you explain this relationship, this influence with American jazz? How South African could buy this kind of records?
South Africa was not cut off – local companies reissued jazz and Blue Note, Prestige and Riverside LPs were also imported. As the notes suggest American jazz represented an urban modern and proudly black articulation of identity. It is not at all surprising that under the social constraints of Apartheid that jazz represented the idea of an identity free of those mental and physical chains.

At the same time, other musicians were forced into exile, such as Blue Notes or Chris McGregor. Is this a scene you want to document too, as does the Ogun label?
Ogun has done an outstanding job of documenting this particular area. One artist whose recordings are sadly out of print is Johnny Dyani – it would be great to produce a box set of his material that came out on various European labels.

In the future is “Tshona” by Pat Matshikiza & Kippie Moketsie, a possible reissue? What about Dollar Brand’s “Mannenberg” or “Underground in Africa”?
Tshona and Mannenberg are very well know and have been reissued a number of times. They are not that difficult to find. Tshona was in fact Kippie’s answer to Mannenberg’s success. Underground in Africa and Shikiza Matshikiza (Pat and Kippie’s second album together) are definitely on the radar though.

Pops Mohamed in seventies…

Black Disco
Echo On The Delay

In another vein, just as spiritual, you publish nowadays a LP with Pops Mohammed: “Black Disco”. Could you tell us more about the story of this record? The history of this band? What about their 2 other LP’s?
The sleeve notes written by Gwen Ansell, author of Soweto Blues, tells it much better than me: Just before the first Black Disco album was made, Rashid Vally’s As-Shams label (which also handled The Dynamics) had released Abdullah Ibrahim’s Mannenberg. Mohamed already knew bassist Sipho Gumede from Dorkay House. At Vally’s Kohinoor record store, he was introduced to Capetonian Coetzee, still in town after the Mannenberg recording session. “Rashid said: ‘This is Pops—he’s a new guy and he’s got compositions. Why don’t you guys talk…?’” Mohamed remembers. A vehicle was hired to bring his Yamaha from his home, and the first Black Disco album was cut: a trio with no drummer. He describes his earlier formations as “experiments”—Black Disco gave Mohamed his direction. After Night Express, he went on to become a co-founder of Movement in the City, with Cape Town drummer Monty Webber. “The name was code for let’s fight the system. It was a very dark time for us, personally and politically, and their two albums including Black Teardrops (another title the censor didn’t like) came from that emotional place.”

How could such a group like that exist , survive, play during Apartheid ?
There was a strong music scene under Apartheid. Record companies were keen to exploit the newly urbanised black population in the late 1960s and seventies. The real problem for groups was venues in which to play and record companies who would release their material. Things became a lot more difficult after the Soweto uprising in 1976 and the military-dominated government of PW Botha through the eighties

Ndikho Xaba and the Natives is part of an aesthetic commitment. More broadly, the system of segregation still very important, (present ?), between the lines, in your LPs . Can we read a political process? Point of view?
Our release programme can be read as a political statement, but I think reducing music to such interpretations reduces the transcendental power of music and assumed identity. It’s the transcendence that holds the power.

Do you think jazz is a soundtrack of emancipation?
Music has the power to transcend but emancipation from economic and cultural barriers requires a lot more work.

How do you decide on the choice of reissues?
We try to identify lost South African recordings that are in demand in second-hand circles.

What could be the label’s leitmotif?
The track ‘Africa’ by Sathima Bea Benjamin.

Chris Albertyn, Sathima Bea Benjamin and Matt Temple
 

What is the Matsuli LP you are prouder? why?
“African Songbird” – its beauty and the personal connection made with Sathima…

The memory of this scene, you revive, it is still present in the South African youth?
There is a strong renaissance of jazz and many younger players are taking the journey forward.

Are you listening to the new South African scene, jazz and soul? And is it connected with the new wave of jazz in London and UK, including children and heirs of the first generation African immigrant?
I listen to a lot of the younger South African jazz players but not that much soul. I am always on the lookout for unique music. Many of the new jazz generation have started touring to Japan, the USA and Europe. We also have British musicians like Shabaka Hutchings who has recently recording a new album in South Africa. So there is a lot of cross-fertilisation. I’m sure that the South African musicians would like more exposure but increasingly as a result of the gentrification of cities like London it is difficult to sustain a strong jazz circuit.

“Night on Earth” is a record session of kora. Could you tell us more about Derek Gripper, who has produced some of South Africa’s most extraordinary musical works, fusing the country’s disparate creative traditions with styles from around the world?
I first heard Derek Gripper’s album of kora compositions played on the guitar a few years ago and I was astounded by his playing and approach. We spoke at length about an album of him playing compositions by Philip Tabane of Malombo, or including other up and coming South African musicians re-interpreting South African standards. Who knows we may still explore this further. But we took a risk to release something different from our usual agenda in order for people to appreciate his work. And slowly he is now getting further recognition, having played recently with some of his musical heroes in Mali. It’s something very unusual and therein was the appeal.

Ndikho
Xaba Shwabada

This record is a bit out of general aesthetics of Matsuli catalogue: it is a current production in which we play themes Toumani Diabate on kora … Is it a way that you keep pursuing?
We are willing to take chances and we loved Derek Gripper’s LP so much we wanted to release it. For a long time, we have also sought to find ways we can bring some of the newer jazz onto our label. This is ongoing.

Nowadays, there are many LP labels who follow as you the model, « Less Is more », I mean more quality even if it’s more expensive… but in the same time, there are also another « new » LP market, with major companies come-back and other labels, who prefer to sell cheaper. Is it the (re)creation of two camps for the LP?
We try to keep our costs as low as possible but with very specific production standards. I’m starting to see quite a few re-issue companies taking the low cost route with certain production values being compromised. I suppose we try to strike a balance between affordability and quality. We are seeing major labels starting to lean heavily on production plants with smaller labels such as ourselves being delayed in our release schedule. Whilst there are many people who are choosing vinyl because it is in vogue I am confident that our niche audience will always stick in vinyl as opposed to paying subscriptions to technology companies for the right to listen to streams.

There are more and more reissues of old LPs, and more and more record labels (major or indie) now release their new artists on LP, or EP. Do you think that the LP reissue market could ever reach saturation point?
I think that good music will always prevail amongst our customers, so it’s really important to keep our standards high. The saturation will come with sub-standard material…

Have you received many negative answers on some of the LPs, artists, unreleased tapes, you were trying to reissue?
Not yet, although licensing and claims of ownership have stopped us from considering some specific albums.

What are your next releases?
We want to issue one of the early Harari LPs and then we are also looking at an exciting project of 78s where we hope to compile a number of albums around certain themes. Most of this material has never been released outside of its original appearance on 78 shellac.

What is the LP you dream of reissuing?
The first South African jazz LP by Sathima Bea Benjamin – this was cut to acetate but is now long lost.

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Each month, we are focusing on a record label founded by an active digger. This month, Gerald from Jazzman Records : in our opinion the greatest reissue label of them all, a pioneering mind in the Rare Groove scene and an inspiration to all of us, starting in the early 90s with his legendary stall in Camden Town. He talks about his passion : music, vinyl records, from digging to publishing.

When did you start digging records?
The first real trip that I undertook with a specific aim to search out old records, rather than casual record shop browsing, was probably 1992 or thereabouts. I’d just started out in business and I heard a rumour that St Louis in the US was good for old records, so the plan was to go there and hope for the best, simple as that! In those days there was no internet, and unless you’re old enough to remember the pre-internet days, it’s hard to imagine that the only information you could get about records & record shops was purely word of mouth or ads in music magazines.

What LP’s did you buy at first? Do you still listen to them?
The first record I ever bought was Madness “The Return Of The Los Palmas” – I got it because it came with a free comic so I thought it was better value compared to getting just a record! It’s got a ska version of “Swan Lake” on it but these days I prefer the 1968 version by The Cats which was probably where Madness got their idea from.

Do you have a particular style or favorite period?
Different styles are often best during different periods, for instance funk from 1968-72 is often acknowledged to be the Golden Era not just for funk but all kinds of music. I also like blues from the 1930s & 40s, oddball instros from 1959-63, and jazz from all periods, although there was a bit of a lull in the 80s and 90s, but some better stuff has been made more recently.

Are you still digging’, buying vinyl, visiting record shops?
Since I moved out of London a few years ago I don’t find the time like I used to, most « digging » is done online, but when I do go to London every few weeks yes I try and find the time, mostly at Eldica, Flashback or London House of Records, which is a private dealer rather than a shop. I also still travel to the US every year and make little trips here and there, always on the lookout… Never Stop Diggin’ as the saying goes!

What was your first release on Jazzman? And why this one?
It was the late 1990s and prices were starting to get crazy high because the supply was dwindling and the demand was increasing, so it made sense to start a reissue label. I didn’t have enough money to make LPs and CDs, so I decided to start with 7”s which cost a lot less. I had this 7” by Kathleen Emery that I got from renowned dealer Bob Gibson from Boston, he sold it to me on the basis of the flipside “Evil Ways” but I preferred the A side, a funky version of “Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child” with some fat drums & bass; nobody I knew had heard of it and everyone I played it to was into it, so it seemed like a good choice.

Soul Expedition
Night Life

Why did you choose this name: Jazzman? Why this explicit reference to jazz?
I didn’t make it up, my girlfriend called me the « Jazzman » so it stuck! I decided to keep the name despite my interest in soul & funk etc, because jazz is basically the root of it all. Without jazz there wouldn’t be a lot else.

You have issued series about Spiritual Jazz … A longtime passion?
In the early 2000s I was working with Malcolm Catto doing funk reissues, but we were both into jazz too. Specifically modal jazz, or spiritual jazz as it was becoming known ie music that was derivative of John Coltrane, Sun Ra etc. We’d done quite a few funk things by this point and I didn’t want Jazzman to be known as just a funk label, so the time was right to branch out a bit. I was concerned whether or not people would be into it as it’s quite a departure from the funk stuff we were known for, but the first album contained quite a few tracks that had a bit of a groove going on eg Salah Ragab, Frank Derrick, so we gave it a go, and it seemed to work.

Your favourites on it?
I honestly can’t specify favourites, they’re all good for one reason or another. I must say I was pleased to get Lloyd Miller on there, the inclusion of his music on that album was the first time it had been issued anywhere since his own releases and I’d been looking for an excuse to get his music re-released for quite a long time.

Jef Gilson
Chant Inca

You did a lot of work about french composer Jef Gilson. How did you discover him?
When you hear a piece of music that you like, it’s natural to investigate other stuff by the same artist to see if it’s any good too. I can’t remember exactly which album of Jef’s that I first heard (probably the one on Saba) but I do know that every record of his had something on it that I enjoyed. Not only that, but he had his own sound. A lot of lesser musicians end up sounding the same, but Jef has a sound of his own, and in particularly good taste. These kind of things sit in the back of the mind, and at some point or other the concept of getting the music out there one way or another starts to form. Then it was just a matter of locating as many of his records as possible, and locating the man himself.

And could you explain the fact of an englishman did a better job than all french label about this great musician?
That I can’t explain, but I can say that I could not have done it without the help of many French people, notably Geraldine Gloro, Jerome Simonneau and Fred Martin.

The Jazzman label is famous for the essential 7” reissues serial from a few years back! How many copies did you press of the best sellers?
1000 as a rule, although some of the popular ones crept up to 2000. The rarest is JM002 by Frank Motley, we only did 500 of those, and we did some WLP of some others where we only made 50…

Riccardo Marrero
Babalonia

Some of your previous long time deleted reissues are now collectible items (Ricardo Marrero, Milton Wright Spaced…). Do you plan any repressing? What do you think of the reissues collector’s market?
I have no plans for repressing those records at the moment. They were limited and numbered editions of 1000 copies, so a repress would make a bit of a mockery of that. Perhaps in a few years, when they’re « old ». One of the reasons for making them numbered and limited is to make sure people bought them. If people thought there was an unlimited pressing and they would be around for a while, they may procrastinate with the purchase. But if they’re numbered and limited – you have to buy now because when they’re gone they’re gone! Of course this means they can command a higher price on the reissues market when they’re sold out, but that’s down to the speculators and dealers and those that slept only have themselves to blame! The reissues market is what it is, as long as there is a demand there will be someone who will sell, and prices go up and down like in any market. It can be interesting and amusing at times to stand back and watch it happen.

We heard rumors about a Jazzman reissue of Mor Thiam much sought-after afro spiritual jazz LP. Is it gonna happen?
I’ve been working on it for about seven years and I think the negotiations are coming to an end so not too long now I hope!

What could be your editorial/esthetic line?
« We dig deeper », a simple phrase that works on a number of levels. If anything, it’s a rod for my own back as it’s something I have to live up to!

What is the Jazzman LP you are prouder? why?
Sorry I can’t single out a specific LP, they all have their particular stories and memories. But the ones closest to me are probably the ones where I met the artist in person, shook their hand, listened to their story. Meeting great artists like Jef Gilson, Bobby Jackson, Lloyd Miller and many, many others can impart something special that you can’t get from an email or a phone call.

You released also the first Lp of Tumi Mogorosi, young South African drummer. What did you like in his music?
It’s breathtaking, the whole album. A masterpiece and a debut album at that. I’d have been a fool not to release it.

How do you find brand new talents? On the internet? On stage? By friends?
Tumi was recommended to me by French record guru Antoine Rajon of Nyami Nyami Records. There are no boundaries to the sources of records, ideas and talent: recommendations from friends and strangers, demos that are sent in, internet searches, anywhere that music can be heard. It’s all about keeping your ears and mind open. I’m very fussy though. Developing an artist takes a lot of time and money to do it right, so if I take the plunge, it has to be right.

What could be the label’s leitmotif?
« What is wrong with groovin’. »

The Brief Encounter
Get A Good Feeling

What is the best deal/business : to make reissues or to produce new records?
With the style of music that we do it is much easier to make reissues, but you will never sell more than a few thousand and often you only sell a few hundred. With new music you may sell just a few hundred too, BUT it’s possible to sell tens of thousands, which will never happen with a reissue. So if you have the time, skill, funding and a bit of luck, the best business is new music.

Is it harder and harder to release compilations? Is it more difficult to obtain copyright by family or producers? Do they ask more guarantees (financial, but also moral)?
It’s easier if anything as more info is online than ever before. What’s difficult is that lots of the artists that we’re interested in are either senile or dying. Obtaining copyrights has been and always will be tricky at times, for all kinds of reasons. If only it were a straightforward job. One thing’s for sure, nothing is straightforward in this business!

Nowadays, there are many LP labels who follow this model, I mean more quality even if it’s more expensive… but in same time, there are also another « new » LP market, with majors’ come-back and other labels, who prefer to sell cheaper. Is it the (re)creation of two camps for the LP?
Not sure and I’m not too fussed what others are doing, particularly the majors, I do my own thing and I do what I think is best.

Prices for rare original LP’s are getting crazy these days. What do you think of it?
They always have been crazy, it’s just a matter of getting used to it. It’s all about supply and demand, and what people are willing to pay.

There are more and more reissues of old LPs, and more and more record labels (major or indie) now release their new artists on LP, or EP. Do you think that the LP reissue market could ever reach saturation point?
Unlikely in that LPs, unlike 7”s, are expensive to produce and the pressing runs are greater. This means that unless they’re super hot they tend not to get repressed, so the cycle of « new release – deletion » is quicker. We have certainly seen saturation in the 45s market, specifically RnB reissues, where the market has been flooded and records kept in print. The result is saturation with 1000s of unwanted, cheap records everywhere.

Uncle Funkenstein

These days more and more bootlegs reissues of rare LP’s arrive on the market (recently World Experience Orchestra, Rick Mason or 1619 Bad Ass Band just to name a few…). I imagine you are, like us, very annoyed by this. How do you react regarding this and what is the correct answer as far as you are concerned?
I’d like to meet the person making them and have a chat. I’d like to introduce them to some of the artists they’re ripping off, face to face. I remember a notorious funk bootlegger back in the day in my office when James Bell (from the Highlighters) was there. We spoke about bootlegs and he was hiding behind the speakers. He’s a coward, just like all bootleggers are. They never reveal their names or identity, and the Funky Planet people are no different. They’re nothing more than criminals out to rip artists off and make money from their cheap and nasty bootlegs. They contribute nothing to the preservation of historic music, they don’t care about the damage they are doing; all they care about is making their dirty money.

Have you received many negative answers on some of the LPs, artists, unreleased tapes, you were trying to reissue?
Not exactly no, quite the opposite in fact. Many people are delighted to be able to hear the music on a rare LP for a few pounds that would otherwise cost hundreds or thousands, not to mention months or years searching.

What are your next releases?
James Tatum, Greg Foat, Belgium Popcorn Story, Nat Birchall… There are 30+ more…!

What is the LP you dream of reissuing?
There are a few that have been denied us for various reasons, such as John Coltrane “Cosmic”, and Dusko Gojkovich “Swinging Macedonia”. Several years ago I wanted to do East New York Ensemble de Music, but the Smithsonian said they would not allow any of their albums to be reissued. Then a year or two later they let someone else do it and there it was! You can’t have them all I suppose. Someone else will do these others one day I’m sure, and there’s plenty more out there besides.

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